rec.autos.simulators

May the Force be with you...NOT

Joachim Trens

May the Force be with you...NOT

by Joachim Trens » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:30:26


> Me too.  I ran the SF remover tool and it said it didn't detect any SF
> drivers.

> Like I say, I'm just the messenger.  I don't like the idea of clandestine
> forces messing with my computer ...

Same thing here Steve, thanks a lot for posting this. I was just
wondering whether these drivers could be on my system anyway without
appearing even in the tweaked DevMan.

Btw, I BCC'd you with those two pages for Joel, just in case you want to
talk to him about it. I'm getting in gear again... for whatever it's worth.

--
Achim
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Joachim Trens

May the Force be with you...NOT

by Joachim Trens » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:32:37

...

FB here as well. Do you happen to know the filenames of these drivers?
I'd like to look for them on my HD to make sure it isn't just my DevMan
not showing them, but can't find anything that looks like the starforce
files.

--
Achim
http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Joachim Trens

May the Force be with you...NOT

by Joachim Trens » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:34:38

...

We should be grateful Steve is drawing our attention to this issue. It
might account for strange symptoms on many systems the cause of which
the users have never found, according to what the article says.

--
Achim
http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

JP

May the Force be with you...NOT

by JP » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:38:28



> ...
> >   Ah, another crusade in the making.  Hope it turns out better than your
> > last one dealing with track creation.

> We should be grateful Steve is drawing our attention to this issue. It
> might account for strange symptoms on many systems the cause of which
> the users have never found, according to what the article says.

> --
> Achim
> http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

  Yeah, maybe he has *this* one right, eh ?
Steve Smit

May the Force be with you...NOT

by Steve Smit » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:45:52

There have been a few posts in usegroups abt. which files (.dll's, I think)
were involved.  If you can't find 'em, I'll look again.



> ...
> > I've got IL2:FB and the Ace expansion pack installed, and I do see
> > Starforce drivers in my device manager.   However, I can't guarantee
> > that IL2 is what installed them.   Guess I need to read up on how to get
> > rid of these things...

> FB here as well. Do you happen to know the filenames of these drivers?
> I'd like to look for them on my HD to make sure it isn't just my DevMan
> not showing them, but can't find anything that looks like the starforce
> files.

> --
> Achim
> http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Steve Smit

May the Force be with you...NOT

by Steve Smit » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:46:21

Got it, thanks.



> > Me too.  I ran the SF remover tool and it said it didn't detect any SF
> > drivers.

> > Like I say, I'm just the messenger.  I don't like the idea of
clandestine
> > forces messing with my computer ...

> Same thing here Steve, thanks a lot for posting this. I was just
> wondering whether these drivers could be on my system anyway without
> appearing even in the tweaked DevMan.

> Btw, I BCC'd you with those two pages for Joel, just in case you want to
> talk to him about it. I'm getting in gear again... for whatever it's
worth.

> --
> Achim
> http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Steve Smit

May the Force be with you...NOT

by Steve Smit » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:11:54

Found:

Check for a large .DLL file, in the same directory as the protected exe.
Most times it's called Protect.dll. Get the file properties of that file
(click with right-mouse button), go to the Version tab page, and there you
can see the Star-Force version ;)

*********************

From the same forum (broadbandreports), SF could be considered illegal
because:

Re: Illegal...
New York State Penal Law:

156.20 Computer tampering in the fourth degree.
A person is guilty of computer tampering in the fourth degree when he
uses or causes to be used a computer or computer service and having no
right to do so he intentionally alters in any manner or destroys
computer data or a computer program of another person.
Computer tampering in the fourth degree is a class A misdemeanor.

156.25 Computer tampering in the third degree.
A person is guilty of computer tampering in the third degree when he
commits the crime of computer tampering in the fourth degree and:
1. he does so with an intent to commit or attempt to commit or further the
commission of any felony; or
2. he has been previously convicted of any crime under this article or
subdivision eleven of section 165.15 of this chapter; or
3. he intentionally alters in any manner or destroys computer material; or
4. he intentionally alters in any manner or destroys computer data or a
computer program so as to cause damages in an aggregate amount exceeding one
thousand dollars.
Computer tampering in the third degree is a class E felony.

***********************

From a Star Force employee(!):

Seems you dont have a clue about copy protection scheme at all.

1. The driver is just a way to communicate your CD drive, directly. I.e.
ensures requests can't be spoofed by emulators.
2. The driver remains INACTIVE unless you START the protected game. (like a
driver for some external USB device, unless you plug thing in)
3. The driver automatically DEACTIVATES and stops any activity when you exit
the protected game.
4. The driver DOES NOT affect your burning programs IN ANY WAY. _Never meant
to_. _Because - absolutelly no need_.
5. To sum up, driver is just a guaranteed way to see if the currently
inserted disc in drive is leagal or not.

There is no other logic like blacklisting software, prevention to make
(burn) copies, dialing home. AT ALL.

Regarding to the protected programs and installation:

After applying the protection to the product, the scheme becames part of the
product. Like other third party Sound System engine DLL file. It is integral
part of the game from now, the game wont run without it, its bound to it.

So, when you agree to install the game, it installs whatever it requires for
it's execution. Why dont you complain about game does not warn you that
third party Rendering Engine DLL or Speech Transfer Technology DLL are
installed? How about some Background Textures, Sound Files etc.??

As for the "driver" itself, it's the ONLY and legally documented way in
WindowsNT to acquire the privileges NEED for the Copy Protection. Without
these privileges it would be easy to crack it. It is just an apropriate
tool. Like when you gonna fix your hand-watches you dont use a hammer.
Driver is THE MOST APROPRIATE and i repeat the LEGAL tool for implementing
efficient Copy Protection schemes under NT.

*************************

Here's something else:

Re: You do give it permission

  Here's my problem: if I buy a game, and in the EULA it says something
about Star Force, I can reject the EULA but I can't return the game to the
retailer because it has been opened. I will now have a $50 coaster.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

[Wrong!]: If if you click NO to the EULA, *Starforce has already installed
itself on your machine* whether you agree or not.

*************************



> ...
> > I've got IL2:FB and the Ace expansion pack installed, and I do see
> > Starforce drivers in my device manager.   However, I can't guarantee
> > that IL2 is what installed them.   Guess I need to read up on how to get
> > rid of these things...

> FB here as well. Do you happen to know the filenames of these drivers?
> I'd like to look for them on my HD to make sure it isn't just my DevMan
> not showing them, but can't find anything that looks like the starforce
> files.

> --
> Achim
> http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Joachim Trens

May the Force be with you...NOT

by Joachim Trens » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:37:57

...

Thanks Steve, will go searching!

--
Achim
http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Joachim Trens

May the Force be with you...NOT

by Joachim Trens » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:39:19


> Found:

> Check for a large .DLL file, in the same directory as the protected exe.
> Most times it's called Protect.dll. Get the file properties of that file
> (click with right-mouse button), go to the Version tab page, and there you
> can see the Star-Force version ;)

> *********************

> From the same forum (broadbandreports), SF could be considered illegal
> because:

> Re: Illegal...
> New York State Penal Law:

> 156.20 Computer tampering in the fourth degree.
> A person is guilty of computer tampering in the fourth degree when he
> uses or causes to be used a computer or computer service and having no
> right to do so he intentionally alters in any manner or destroys
> computer data or a computer program of another person.
> Computer tampering in the fourth degree is a class A misdemeanor.

> 156.25 Computer tampering in the third degree.
> A person is guilty of computer tampering in the third degree when he
> commits the crime of computer tampering in the fourth degree and:
> 1. he does so with an intent to commit or attempt to commit or further the
> commission of any felony; or
> 2. he has been previously convicted of any crime under this article or
> subdivision eleven of section 165.15 of this chapter; or
> 3. he intentionally alters in any manner or destroys computer material; or
> 4. he intentionally alters in any manner or destroys computer data or a
> computer program so as to cause damages in an aggregate amount exceeding one
> thousand dollars.
> Computer tampering in the third degree is a class E felony.

> ***********************

> From a Star Force employee(!):

> Seems you dont have a clue about copy protection scheme at all.

> 1. The driver is just a way to communicate your CD drive, directly. I.e.
> ensures requests can't be spoofed by emulators.
> 2. The driver remains INACTIVE unless you START the protected game. (like a
> driver for some external USB device, unless you plug thing in)
> 3. The driver automatically DEACTIVATES and stops any activity when you exit
> the protected game.
> 4. The driver DOES NOT affect your burning programs IN ANY WAY. _Never meant
> to_. _Because - absolutelly no need_.
> 5. To sum up, driver is just a guaranteed way to see if the currently
> inserted disc in drive is leagal or not.

> There is no other logic like blacklisting software, prevention to make
> (burn) copies, dialing home. AT ALL.

> Regarding to the protected programs and installation:

> After applying the protection to the product, the scheme becames part of the
> product. Like other third party Sound System engine DLL file. It is integral
> part of the game from now, the game wont run without it, its bound to it.

> So, when you agree to install the game, it installs whatever it requires for
> it's execution. Why dont you complain about game does not warn you that
> third party Rendering Engine DLL or Speech Transfer Technology DLL are
> installed? How about some Background Textures, Sound Files etc.??

> As for the "driver" itself, it's the ONLY and legally documented way in
> WindowsNT to acquire the privileges NEED for the Copy Protection. Without
> these privileges it would be easy to crack it. It is just an apropriate
> tool. Like when you gonna fix your hand-watches you dont use a hammer.
> Driver is THE MOST APROPRIATE and i repeat the LEGAL tool for implementing
> efficient Copy Protection schemes under NT.

> *************************

> Here's something else:

> Re: You do give it permission

>   Here's my problem: if I buy a game, and in the EULA it says something
> about Star Force, I can reject the EULA but I can't return the game to the
> retailer because it has been opened. I will now have a $50 coaster.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --

> [Wrong!]: If if you click NO to the EULA, *Starforce has already installed
> itself on your machine* whether you agree or not.

> *************************




>>...

>>>I've got IL2:FB and the Ace expansion pack installed, and I do see
>>>Starforce drivers in my device manager.   However, I can't guarantee
>>>that IL2 is what installed them.   Guess I need to read up on how to get
>>>rid of these things...

>>FB here as well. Do you happen to know the filenames of these drivers?
>>I'd like to look for them on my HD to make sure it isn't just my DevMan
>>not showing them, but can't find anything that looks like the starforce
>>files.

>>--
>>Achim
>>http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Found one instance in the X2 directory!

--
Achim
http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Don Burnett

May the Force be with you...NOT

by Don Burnett » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:47:49

I have,
IL2FB AEP
Eech
NR2003
F1C w/ updated season
MSFS 2002
CFS3
Need for Speed Underground
GPL with most mods
NOLF 2

No SF drivers here either, whew..

--
Don Burnette


> I only have IL2-FB/Aces, GTR PDemo, RBR Demo and NR2003 on my ***
> rig and I dont have any SF drivers.

> Mitch


>> I've got IL2:FB and the Ace expansion pack installed, and I do see
>> Starforce drivers in my device manager.   However, I can't guarantee
>> that IL2 is what installed them.   Guess I need to read up on how to
>> get rid of these things...

alex

May the Force be with you...NOT

by alex » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 03:02:58


berlin.de:


> ...
>>   Ah, another crusade in the making.  Hope it turns out better than your
>> last one dealing with track creation.

> We should be grateful Steve is drawing our attention to this issue. It
> might account for strange symptoms on many systems the cause of which
> the users have never found, according to what the article says.

Yet another reason to:
- not work with administrator rights
- use InCtrl when installing programs (not that it protects vs StarForce,
but at least you'd know it got installed right away).

Alex.

Joachim Trens

May the Force be with you...NOT

by Joachim Trens » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 04:02:21

...
...
True. AAMOF, I do use InCtrl5. A very valuable tool.

--
Achim
http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Joachim Trens

May the Force be with you...NOT

by Joachim Trens » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 04:30:11


> There have been a few posts in usegroups abt. which files (.dll's, I think)
> were involved.  If you can't find 'em, I'll look again.

...

Thank you Steve. AAMOF I did find protect.dll in the X2 directory.
Neither of my two Registries showed any sign of 'protect.dll' or
'starforce' though, and neither did the inis, so I guess it doesn't get
loaded on my system except when the protected prog starts.

--
Achim
http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Steve Simpso

May the Force be with you...NOT

by Steve Simpso » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 06:48:44

Shock!  Horror!

You guys are paranoid.  SF cleaner gets rid of it - not that it does
anything anyway....

Steve Simpso

May the Force be with you...NOT

by Steve Simpso » Wed, 13 Oct 2004 06:53:52

'Fraid not.  Starforce 3 is one of the most harmless programs around.  Just
about all of the 'scare' posts about it on internet forums are by frustrated
warez kiddies.


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