rec.autos.simulators

I've used my Logitech Momo with my PC and PS2.  It's twitchy on the PS2
and difficult to calibrate.  It's not officialy supported so I can't
complain.  Most of the effects are bumps from hitting cars, rumble
strips etc.  I don't recall feeling weight transfer.

Technically speaking, PS2 or consoles in general don't have force
feedback.
They just have "rumble" capabilities. A small motor/weight combo like
those
used in a pager can give you a shake with precise timing, but that's
hardly
force feedback.

--KC

Mike King enlightened us with:

The Gamecube has a Logitech force-feedback wheel as well. IMO it's
surprisingly good with R-Racing (you do feel weight transfer there), as well
as the more arcade-style Burnout 2.

Even more surprising, there's a handheld force-feedback controller for the
PSOne, called JogCon. It came with Ridge Racer 4, where it was a fun
addition but not great (weight transfer could be felt). But with V-Rally 2
it was really very impressive, you could really feel the typical resistance
on the front wheels of driving through snow or mud, as well as asphalt and
gravel. Gran Turismo 2 was supposed to support it, but it was really
terribly executed in the demo and left out of the final version. Which is
the main reason the JogCon flopped (it wasn't easy to hold as well).

(BTW a great aspect of R-Racing is the commentary you get while driving,
telling you things like you have to brake earlier, aim closer to the inside
of the turn, go through turns faster etc. etc., really great. It also tells
you when you've taken a turn really well. With a little bit of tuning the
handling of the cars is pretty nice in that game, it's a lot of fun to
play). On the Gamecube it comes with Pacman VS, which is a lot of fun as
well.

Sucks ass, IMO. I might hold out hope if Ed Fries was still around, but
Microsoft Games seems to have taken a turn towards chicken shit with
his departure (may be the cause of it). Ideally, they would add drivers
to the XDK and I could use my Driving Force Pro in Forza. Anything
less, and I'm sticking to PS2 and PC for simulation racing, and Xbox
for arcade racing only.

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/driving/forzamotorsport/media.html

The Speedster 3 driving wheel will support FF.  Granted, you never know
until things hit the showroom floor, but it does appear that Logitech
is dead wrong in this case.

I take it for granted that Garrett Young (lead program manager for
Microsoft's racing studio) and Jef Holove (Director of Product
Marketing at Logitech) know what they're talking about when they say
that the Xbox hardware doesn't support FF. Here is what they say:

Garrett Young:
http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/873/Forza-Motorsport-Microsoft-Ga...

# If E3 was any indication, MadCatz looks as though they are planning
# a special Forza wheel. We have no doubt that the wheel will be
# spectacular, but will it support force feedback via Forza?
#
# Garrett Young: MadCatz was a great partner for creating our wheel
# for E3. The Xbox doesn't actually support force feedback natively on
# the hardware side, so we are still working out the kinks with them
# on how we can utilize the rumble channel to deliver the
# functionality we want.

Jef Holove:
http://cars.ign.com/articles/526/526806p1.html?fromint=1

# ...the Xbox console doesn't support force feedback.

But maybe I get it all wrong; I don't know. I am going to buy Forza
Motorsport when the game hits the shelves no matter what the Xbox
hardware supports.

--
ari

Hey, what ever works!  They might pull this off just enough to make it work
reasonably well.  Maybe not as good as PC FF, but a step up from Xbox
rumbles.

The PS2 can do the same (sometimes doesn't due to the arcady nature of the
games, or lack of attention to detail during implementation). The Xbox
*could* if MS got their act together.

| So my dilema is, is the FF on PS2 worth getting a Driving Force Pro,
| and eventually an XBox wheel, or go with a cheaper wheel for the
| consoles? Whew!

Your choice.

Some of the FF on PS2 is pretty amazing. If you like rally and are in the
Europe area (or have a modded PS2 and a PAL-capable TV), try RBR. It's
really good on both PC as well as PS2. On the PS2, it's multi-turn aware
(for DFPro) and allows you to adjust steering ranges different from 200 and
900 degrees. It seems like the FF is the same quality as on the PC, if not
even a bit more "integrated", for lack of a better word. The first time I
tried it I spent a good half an hour just touring around the parking lot,
the first "school mode" track, enjoying exactly what you described, weight
transfer and general car feel, which is strong and precise IMHO.

Test Drive: Eve of Destruction is another interesting title, FF-wise (and
also does multi-turn, although not with adjustable range). GT4 comes to
mind, haven't really tried that yet, though so I won't comment.

I can't get anybody at Sony to do anything but mumble when I ask about the
missing Net code, and Microsoft clammed up when I asked them about those
nice wheels they used to demo Forza at E3 last year, so I talked to a source
at Logitech.  He said neither Logi nor Guillemot/TM had ever bothered to
make a decent wheel for the Xbox because it doesn't support FF (it's never
even been in the SDK), and few console gamers are willing to spend more than
$24.95 (i.e., entry-level Mad Katz) for a non-FF wheel.  Hence, no market.

I had heard that there's a Xbox controller-to-USB dongle you can mail-order
from Japan (it only costs $15, but the shipping is twice that), but my Logi
guy said don't bother; the rumble FX are only loosely related to what the
chassis is doing (it does recognize curbs).  He said they were all waiting
to hear whether or not the Xbox 2 would support FF before Logi would commit
to making a wheel for it.

OTOH, I have heard good things abt. the Logi DFP (Driving Force Pro), with
both the PS2 and the PC.  It's a 900-degree wheel (2-1/2 turns
lock-to-lock), but it will work fine w. games that don't support all that
twirling (it defaults to 270 deg., I think).  There are no PC drivers for
it...yet...but if you have Logi's profile s/w you can set it up for a PC, no
prob.  Unlike every earlier FF wheel, the DFP uses neither cogs nor wires &
pulleys; it's an induction motor - no physical contact - so you don't get
gear lash or linear friction.

I've have a DFP which I haven't installed (and won't until it's time to
finish the C&D article), but I did try one on Force-Dynamics incredible
shake 'n' bake***pit simulator.  It'd been shaken-not-stirred almost to
death, so I'm not sure it's reliability is up to the original Logi Momo
Force (mine is still going strong), but it's a VERY nice wheel.

<snipped>

| OTOH, I have heard good things abt. the Logi DFP (Driving Force
| Pro), with both the PS2 and the PC.  It's a 900-degree wheel (2-1/2
| turns lock-to-lock), but it will work fine w. games that don't
| support all that twirling (it defaults to 270 deg., I think).  There
| are no PC drivers for it...yet...but if you have Logi's profile s/w
| you can set it up for a PC, no prob.  Unlike every earlier FF wheel,
| the DFP uses neither cogs nor wires & pulleys; it's an induction
| motor - no physical contact - so you don't get gear lash or linear
| friction.

What? "Induction motor"? That sounds sweet, but I am afraid it's just a
regular set of gears. (with a ball bearing on the wheel shaft like your MOMO
Force, though). Just take off the top of the case to have a look for
yourself.

It is a nice wheel, though. The default range is 200 degrees
(http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/details/US/EN,CRID=2250,co...
d=7226,detail=2).