rec.autos.simulators

by **Tony Rickar** » Wed, 01 Jan 2003 07:54:16

> "adaptablility of the young" That's another thing. When racing sims,
you
> have to adapt to totally different physics engines, not just cars,
whenever
> you play a different game. In real life, you just have to change cars,
yet
> the still abide by the same laws of physics. Makes the change seem

simple.

My view is that after years of driving and watching racing I will try to
force the physics of a sim to match my perception of going fast and
being on the edge. The young non driver will adapt more readily to the
real physics of the sim to maximise performance. I'm not unhappy with
that. Modern sims (from GPL) really provide that feeling that matches my
perception of hustling a high performance race car along and that is
what is important to me.

Plus also I believe youngsters who have not experienced driving don't
have to learn to utilise just vision and audio to replace the seat of
the pants feel from real physics.

For a talented simmer just starting driving the added bonus of genuine
physics providing feedback must make it seem simple!

Cheers

Tony

by **Jan Verschuere** » Wed, 01 Jan 2003 08:13:46

That's odd... I was instantly reminded of Walter Rorhl in the Audi S4.

Sim wheels turn through a smaller angle than real wheels, so that's why the
real guys are more vigorous in their movements, I think.

Jan.
=---

by **Tony Rickar** » Wed, 01 Jan 2003 08:29:41

True. Though I was reminded to look at this video for a comparison:

http://www.softlab.ntua.gr/~sivann/pub/Course%20de%20Pikes%20Peak%20(Ari
%20Vatanen).mpeg

The link may split above.

My workrate is more like Ari's, though my application is probably less
effective :)

Cheers

tony

by **Alex Kihuran** » Wed, 01 Jan 2003 09:30:47

Heh, I used to watch a similar video everyday between the ages of 2 and 3.
It was the same 88 Pikes Peak Hillclimb, but it was a special called "Hidden
Heroes" and it focused solely on Robby Unser and Ari Vatanen that year.
Pretty cool stuff. The RallySport Online guys gave Robby Unser a test so I
finally got to meet him this year, cool stuff.

Thanks,
Alex

by **Alex Kihuran** » Wed, 01 Jan 2003 09:32:55

Heh heh, thanks. I get my normal rally challenge by occasionally running the
full championship in expert mode in the Fulvia, trying to win every rally
but without pace notes (rallies here in the US are blind-ish, we only have
vague route books). Also, if I roll or crash I retire the event. Pretty
challenging stuff! Although, I'll let a little tag with the back end go
since in RL it would still be acceptable, heh.

Thanks,
Alex

> > What I show in the video is not rally
> > driving, it's more hotlapping. It's just a demonstation to show how
> AWD is
> > handled in RT and the best way to show that is to of course, drive the
> as
> > perfectly as possible.

> That sums up my thoughts perfectly. I guess what I want from a
> racing/rallying sim is as close to RL as possible. Yet this could only
> be achieved by forcing a slow pace note collating run and one run only,
> which we know is not going to happen. Still, even so I think I know who
> RAS would be putting their money on, eh Alex!

> > Rally driving is more than just sliding quickly around corners or
> timing
> > pendulum turns, it's staying on the road, minimizing mistakes, and
> going
> > fastest with the limited knowledge of the road you have.

> Wise head on young shoulders. I'm going off this young man <G>

> Cheers!

> Tony

by **Alex Kihuran** » Wed, 01 Jan 2003 09:36:07

Well before I started racing sims I watched TONS of in-car video and rally
video. I have at least 25 rally videos here, including "Rally Experience"
"Snow Rally Experience with Colin McRae" all the rally reviews from 85-now
(mind you I was born in 87) and that Pikes Peak special with all that
Vatanen in-car footage. When I got into sims, I tried to replicate that. As
you can see in my video, I do try to replicate that through pendulum turns.
I also increase the stiffness and the front brake bias to make the car feel
like the Eclipse AWD I drove that was basically stock and nose heavy. The
pendulum turns aren't just for show, I actually have to do them to get the
thing to turn, lol.

Thanks,
Alex

> > "adaptablility of the young" That's another thing. When racing sims,
> you
> > have to adapt to totally different physics engines, not just cars,
> whenever
> > you play a different game. In real life, you just have to change cars,
> yet
> > the still abide by the same laws of physics. Makes the change seem
> simple.

> My view is that after years of driving and watching racing I will try to
> force the physics of a sim to match my perception of going fast and
> being on the edge. The young non driver will adapt more readily to the
> real physics of the sim to maximise performance. I'm not unhappy with
> that. Modern sims (from GPL) really provide that feeling that matches my
> perception of hustling a high performance race car along and that is
> what is important to me.

> Plus also I believe youngsters who have not experienced driving don't
> have to learn to utilise just vision and audio to replace the seat of
> the pants feel from real physics.

> For a talented simmer just starting driving the added bonus of genuine
> physics providing feedback must make it seem simple!

> Cheers

> Tony

by **Alex Kihuran** » Wed, 01 Jan 2003 10:01:12

Whoops, a little redundant there, sorry :)

> Heh, I used to watch a similar video everyday between the ages of 2 and 3.
> It was the same 88 Pikes Peak Hillclimb, but it was a special called
"Hidden
> Heroes" and it focused solely on Robby Unser and Ari Vatanen that year.
> Pretty cool stuff. The RallySport Online guys gave Robby Unser a test so I
> finally got to meet him this year, cool stuff.

> Thanks,
> Alex

> > > > Has anyone else noticed the difference between onboard
> > > > very fast RT laps, and to a lesser extent other sims,
> > > > compared to real rally/race car footage. The sim version
> > > > looks has much less steering effort and correction.

> > > That's odd... I was instantly reminded of Walter Rorhl in the Audi S4.

> > > Sim wheels turn through a smaller angle than real wheels, so that's
> > why the
> > > real guys are more vigorous in their movements, I think.

> > > Jan.

> > True. Though I was reminded to look at this video for a comparison:

> > http://www.softlab.ntua.gr/~sivann/pub/Course%20de%20Pikes%20Peak%20(Ari
> > %20Vatanen).mpeg

> > The link may split above.

> > My workrate is more like Ari's, though my application is probably less
> > effective :)

> > Cheers

> > tony

by **Goy Larse** » Wed, 01 Jan 2003 10:34:00

> True. Though I was reminded to look at this video for a comparison:

> http://www.softlab.ntua.gr/~sivann/pub/Course%20de%20Pikes%20Peak%20(Ari
> %20Vatanen).mpeg

> The link may split above.

> My workrate is more like Ari's, though my application is probably less
> effective :)

Ah, but remember that Ari had his greatest days rallying RWD Escort's
and Manta's, and it's my personal opinion that until you've watched a
video of Ari going BTTW in an Escort BDA, you haven't seen what Rallying
is about, unless of course you've seem Markku Alen in a FIAT 131 Abarth
or Henri Toivonen in an Ascona 400 or Pentti Arikkala in a .....ok, it's
my opinion that until you've seen the Flying Finn's of the mid to late
70's and early 80's, you haven't seen what Rallying is about

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

by **Tony Rickar** » Wed, 01 Jan 2003 18:22:07

> Ah, but remember that Ari had his greatest days rallying RWD Escort's
> and Manta's, and it's my personal opinion that until you've watched a
> video of Ari going BTTW in an Escort BDA, you haven't seen what
Rallying
> is about, unless of course you've seem Markku Alen in a FIAT 131
Abarth
> or Henri Toivonen in an Ascona 400 or Pentti Arikkala in a .....ok,
it's
> my opinion that until you've seen the Flying Finn's of the mid to late
> 70's and early 80's, you haven't seen what Rallying is about

Ah but I *do* remember...stood in a forest in Yorkshire at 3am...

When the British World rally event was still called the RAC Rally and
Russell Brookes was still driving a Chevette whilst Jimmy Macrae had
just moved on to one of those new fangled Ascona 400s you refer to :)

Those were the days...

Cheers
Tony

by **Goy Larse** » Thu, 02 Jan 2003 00:11:28

> > Ah, but remember that Ari had his greatest days rallying RWD Escort's
> > and Manta's, and it's my personal opinion that until you've watched a
> > video of Ari going BTTW in an Escort BDA, you haven't seen what
> Rallying
> > is about, unless of course you've seem Markku Alen in a FIAT 131
> Abarth
> > or Henri Toivonen in an Ascona 400 or Pentti Arikkala in a .....ok,
> it's
> > my opinion that until you've seen the Flying Finn's of the mid to late
> > 70's and early 80's, you haven't seen what Rallying is about

> Ah but I *do* remember...stood in a forest in Yorkshire at 3am...

> When the British World rally event was still called the RAC Rally and
> Russell Brookes was still driving a Chevette whilst Jimmy Macrae had
> just moved on to one of those new fangled Ascona 400s you refer to :)

> Those were the days...

"Andrew's Heat For Hire".....:-)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, 4WD ruined Rallying

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

by **Tony Rickar** » Thu, 02 Jan 2003 00:58:03

Yep, those were the days!

McRae was in a Manta 400 - my mistake

Too right, I got to drive a section of the stage in the RAC rally '83
after the event (marshalling) in my Sunbeam ti. The Quattros had dug
such huge grooves in the track my sump was dragging on the resulting
mound in the centre that I had to drive on the mound and the edge of the
track. Not quite the exciting ride I had hoped for!

Brookes was most impressive hurling a dated car to fifth.

Cheers

Tony

by **Goy Larse** » Thu, 02 Jan 2003 01:10:21

> Yep, those were the days!

Yeah....:-)

He also drove Ascona 400's if memory serves me right, 83, wasn't that
the year Ari drove a Manta 400 in the RAC ?

I have a video of him in the 400, on wet tarmac going through a 3rd or
with gear corner about as sideways as possible, fairly long one, and
being Ari he lets go of the wheel to wave to the camera crew as if he
was out on a Sunday drive

It looked like it had been hurled too :-), yeah, Russel was great,
especially on tarmac stages in the British Championship

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

by **Tony Rickar** » Thu, 02 Jan 2003 01:43:10

Yeh, Vatanen & Toivonen were the works Opel drivers - both retired.

I remember seeing an on-board video on the same RAC Rally event with Ari
lambasting Harryman for calling instructions too early. He was still
animated whilst negotiating the corner his co-driver had called :)

Cheers

Tony

by **ymenar** » Thu, 02 Jan 2003 02:07:38

> Has anyone else noticed the difference between onboard very fast RT
> laps, and to a lesser extent other sims, compared to real rally/race car
> footage. The sim version looks has much less steering effort and
> correction.

The steering representation inside RT has never been the same as my wheel
turns on my own controller. It just seems to be limited to 90 degrees of
arc in total.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://ymenard.cjb.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Alex Kihuran** » Thu, 02 Jan 2003 02:36:35

Well, it ruined the roads of rallies :) Anyway, while I think RWD is more
spectacular and sideways, at such high power it doesn't represent tons of
skill. You can basically power out of anything sideways. You don't have to
worry much about setting the car up for the turn, or carrying your speed
throughout it since you just power out sideways. FWD drivers have to carry
speed the most, AWD takes a lot of style, RWD is just really sideways, lol.
Basically the strategy for RWD is brake almost straight, step on the gas,
apex really late, power down the next straight. Some drivers, like Vatanen,
added some flair to it and were faster, but someone with the simple strategy
that I stated above could still be very compeitive.

Just my 2 cents :)

Thanks,
Alex

> > > Ah, but remember that Ari had his greatest days rallying RWD Escort's
> > > and Manta's, and it's my personal opinion that until you've watched a
> > > video of Ari going BTTW in an Escort BDA, you haven't seen what
> > Rallying
> > > is about, unless of course you've seem Markku Alen in a FIAT 131
> > Abarth
> > > or Henri Toivonen in an Ascona 400 or Pentti Arikkala in a .....ok,
> > it's
> > > my opinion that until you've seen the Flying Finn's of the mid to late
> > > 70's and early 80's, you haven't seen what Rallying is about

> > Ah but I *do* remember...stood in a forest in Yorkshire at 3am...

> > When the British World rally event was still called the RAC Rally and
> > Russell Brookes was still driving a Chevette whilst Jimmy Macrae had
> > just moved on to one of those new fangled Ascona 400s you refer to :)

> > Those were the days...

> "Andrew's Heat For Hire".....:-)

> I've said it before and I'll say it again, 4WD ruined Rallying

> Beers and cheers
> (uncle) Goy

> http://www.theuspits.com

> "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
> --Groucho Marx--

rec.autos.simulators

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