rec.autos.simulators

Comments welcome.

Thanks.

Well I think it all depends what your budget is.  If you're talking
about "budget" wheels (i.e. 150 or less) then I reckon a decent FF
wheel is worth it.  Personally I don't see the point in buying the non
FF versions of Microsoft/Logitech/Whaever products when the FF version
is not that much more expensive and adds so much more to the driving
experience (if properly configured).

However if your talking about buying some serious sim driving kit then
non FF is the way to go and in fact the only thing available.  I've
tried everything from cheap non FF wheels to reasonable FF wheels to
ridiculously expensive non FF (ECCI controls F1 Momo...drooool).  IMHO
opinion most non FF cheaper wheels just feel loose and lifeless and
provide no sense of what is happening.  I have the MSFF wheel and have
found it to be absolutely brilliant.  The implementation of FF is so
good in Gpl that I can feel what the car's doing and since using the
FF wheel my driving has improved considerably.....it just adds so much
to the *** experience.  Of course using the ECCI wheel (belongs to
a mate) was on another level again, but then so was the price.

The problem is of course that not all sims are the same <fx: ducks to
avoid ensuing flame war> and so in some cases FF is simply intrusive
and more of a pain than a sensory cue.

In short, get an MSFF, or Logitech Momo, or Act Labs RS (if you live
in the US).  You won't regret it :-)

Andy
--
Andy Cunningham
Stockholm, Sweden

I'd say so - although in most games it tends to be more about fun
than control. However, I use an original logitech LWFF and
I don't think you can get them anymore.

In GPL, I find the weighting up of the steering helps warn me about
imminent problems earlier. In RC2000, the steering goes totally
light over the ice - which helps draw you into the action.

In SCGT, the force feedback doesn't help much - and that's
the story for many others too - excpet perhaps Colin McRae Rally.

Perhaps the key thing is that if you don't get a FF one now, you'll
probably end up buying one in the end out of curiousity. If your
married - buying this second wheel is likely to get you a fair
bit of hassle at home :-)

So, on that basis - if this is a question your asking before
buying ant wheel you might want to go FF now.

Steve

Dave

I would say that it depends on what sim your talking about.  In sims
like N4, GPL, F1 2001, and Viper Racing, FF is definitely worthwhile,
since it gives you a feel for what the car is doing on the track.  In
other games, which I hesitate to call sims (ie - Midtown Madness,
Insane, etc) all it gives you is a feel of the impacts.

List what specific sims you drive, and you'll get more specific answers.

Bert

MadDAWG

I have a MSFF USB Wheel and I have not changed the settings from the
default. I was just wondering if you or someone else could recommend what
settings to use. I think I know how to "calibrate" the wheel, just haven't
fond the time to do so.

Jone Tytlandsvik
Norway

Jone

It's the game port version and I can't remember what settings I've
got, but I'll have a look in my core.ini when I get home and post the
settings.  I think they're pretty much standard.  The key thing is to
AVOID using extremely high values as recommended by some.

HTH

Andy
--
Andy Cunningham
Stockholm, Sweden

What I do like about FF is simply that it feels much more natural than
the centering spring on non-FF wheels.  That can be a big help in
guiding a car.  For example, in a NASCAR sim on straights the car would
normally drift to the left if you held the wheel straight.  With FF you
can feel this and correct for it.  Similarly, I feel like I have a much
better sense of when the car is straight on turn exit with an FF wheel.
So the benefit to FF for me is better directional feel.

But my big disappointment with FF has been the amount of tweaking that
some games require.  I'm going to get myself in trouble here by saying
this, but the FF implementation in Papyrus and MGI sims is IMO all
wrong.  They both claim to bypass the normal FF interface in order to
maintain better control of the forces you feel.  I don't know exactly
what that means from a programming standpoint, but I do know that
bypassing the standard interface means giving up what the wheel's
drivers and firmware know about the mechanical properties of the wheel.
This means that in Papy sims you have to manually determine a correction
for the wheel's latency, and in NASCAR Heat you have to manually adjust
the blending between the centering spring force and the force due to
grip.  Frankly, with my wheel I just cannot get them right, but I have
the Logitech Wingman Formula Force GP, which is a low cost, low torque
wheel.  I think it probably has more latency than the Papyrus model can
account for, and is weaker than the MGI model can account for.  Still,
if they had stuck with the standard spring/mass/damper model that is
provided for in the API and properly calibrated in the wheel, I wouldn't
have this problem.

For example, in F1 2001 I can just set the level of effects and the
effects strength in the menu, and it works fine.  I CAN tweak it more
than that, but I don't have to.  And I think many people would agree
with me that F1 2001 has the best FF implementation of any sim.
Similarly NFS:PU just requires the adjustment of effects levels, no
calibration routine.  The physics in NFS:PU may not be much to write
home about, but the FF implementation does indeed allow you to feel the
car's handling (such as it is) precisely.  Rally Trophy (I only have the
demo) works just fine without setting anything.

So I guess what I am saying is that it depends on the games you play,
and on which wheel you get.  If you are a serious sim racer, or if you
play Papy or MGI games, don't get a cheap FF wheel, they are only good
for arcade racers.  And you don't need FF to go fast, but it is an asset
and can make driving easier.  The Logitech Momo and the Act Labs units
seem to consistently get the best reviews, go for one of those and you
will probably be happy.  If you can't afford one of those, skip it
altogether.  The Microsoft and Thrustmaster units appear to be sound
mechanically, but I frequently see people in here complaining about
compatibility or other driver related problems with those units.  And as
I said the Logitech GP is not really adequate for serious sims.

So to get back to your question, are they worth the money?  Only you can
answer that, but what I wanted to make clear is that you should plan on
getting one of the better units if you want to do it at all.  The Momo
for example is US $200.  Is it worth that amount of money to have a more
natural feeling wheel in some of your games?  For some people yes, for
others no.

As promised, details of my core.ini

xx

[Joy ]
allow_force_feedback = 1          ; Use FF if device has it
force_feedback_damping = 0.000000 ; force feedback damping coefficient
force_feedback_latency = 0.000000 ; force feedback latency (secs)
max_steering_torque = 240.000000  ; steering torque giving max device
force

[ Hack ]
steer_ratio = 0

xx

HTH

Andy
--
Andy Cunningham
Stockholm, Sweden

Don Burnette

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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You can use your TSW peds together with your Momo wheel in both N4 and
F12001.........  Just in case you weren't aware of that.  It gives you the best
of both worlds.  I run my LWFF together with the TSW peds, myself.

Bert

Thanks,

Don Burnette