rec.autos.simulators

What's new in N2003 :)

Jay Taylo

What's new in N2003 :)

by Jay Taylo » Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:39:45

Obviously you've already made your mind up about NR2003, and thats your
choice.  Sounds like there isn't much papy could have done to change it
since you seem to find something wrong with everything new or improved
they've tried to add.   The real question for you is, are you going to go
out and buy it so you can have first hand knowledge and attempt to find
fault in everything, or will you leave it alone and stick with whatever else
you get enjoyment from.

Jay




> >As a beta tester for N2003, Papyrus has allowed me to discuss some of the
> >new features that will be included in N2003. The reason I'm giving you
guys
> >this information is to show you how many things have been added, changed
or
> >updated. At 1st look, many may not recognize all the work that has gone
into
> >this sim. I can honestly say this is the best & most realistic NASCAR
racing
> >sim to date :)

> Well why would it be worse than anything previously released by Papy?

> >Improved physics. Input supplied by actual WC chief engineers

> whatever.  does it improve gameplay?

> >Tires & grip modeled directly from Goodyear specs

> whatever.  does it improve gameplay?

> >50 more horsepower

> gee whillickers.

> >Wall glue less sticky

> though still as unrealistic as before?

> >Improved AI

> "improved" AI has been promised with every new release of Nx.  Can you
> tell us if the AI model has been changed from the
> "one-lp-file-to-rule-them-all" approach (hey I just saw Two Towers so
> forgive me here) to a model where each car behaves uniquely?  Or in
> other words, what happens when you're at the head of a train and slam
> on the brakes?  Does every car in the train behave exactly the same
> way?  Does  the 10th car back magically know when to brake?

> Also, what happens if you park in the middle of the track at Marty?
> Do AI cars behave as if they have a spotter, or do they continue to
> slam headlong into a pile of cars?

> >Improved graphics

> the least important element of any serious sim that gets far too much
> focus during development.

> >Improved sounds (in car, replays, menus)

> as above.

> >Actual WC setups
> >Updated tracks
> >Realistic weather that changes during sessions and race

> what about realistic marble buildup on the high groove and near the
> wall?  What about other dynamic track surface changes?

> >Live weather updates shown on F1 screen
> >Tire temps now start out warmer or colder depending on track weather
> >Pace car is now a ghost car

> to avoid what?  AI that's still wonky?

> >Far-chase driving view

> Ahh, so it's more like lesser Nascar sims.

> >Adjustable***pit view
> >Off-line league support in exported standings
> >Polling & vote system
> >Additional admin. commands
> >Advanced controller options
> >Advanced graphic options
> >Gamma & brightness options

> wow, this is new.  Stop the presses!

> >Shadows options. On ground from cars & structures. Shadows on cars from
> >other cars & structures as well as into***pit
> >Reflections on structures
> >Solar effects
> >Track lighting
> >Hard core mode

> which is what?  Is there a soft core setting?

> >Windshield buildup
> >Bumpy tracks accurately modeled
> >3d crowds

> as above, a graphical update that is meaningless during the a race.

> >Stability driving aid
> >Animated objects (planes, blimps, helicopters)

> oooh yeah, so I can spend less time watching cars around me and more
> at useless crap.

> >Animated flags indicating wind direction
> >Opponent pit crew & pit box option
> >Improved pit crew graphics
> >Ability to set pit stop frequency
> >Adaptive speed control for AI

> an unpopular GPL option comes to Nx just to add another line in the
> "what's new" section.

> >Auto option for setting AI behavior that adjusts itself automatically
based
> >on past performances

> this is the same as above.

> >Damage remodeled

> why, cuz it sucked before?  Does it still suck now?

> >Driver hand movements on wheel in rear chase view

> again, stop the presses!

> >Texture filtering options
> >Smaller fuel tanks at restrictor tracks

> is this modelled physically, or are you saying that F3 now shows less
> max fuel?

> >Updated rules & penalties

> Papy hasn't done much with this series since N2.  For instance, would
> be nice to put in a replay->avi/mpg/wmv converter.  Or hey, what about
> a career mode?

> Feel free to flame, just playing devil's advocate.

Tony Kelle

What's new in N2003 :)

by Tony Kelle » Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:01:49

 Wow, Mr Optomistic. Sounds like you should go buy a better representation
of the NASCAR Winston Cup series. Obviously you've found one.

 Incidently, the software they used in the Two Towers I'm quite certain you
wont find for $50.00 US, and probably not even if you add a couple more
zero's to it.

TK

Eldre

What's new in N2003 :)

by Eldre » Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:36:02



>"Mike Grandy" wrote...
>> Excellent!!

>Yeah, we'll get Eldred to start you a lap down in the Rascar races.. ;-)

Hmm....that's a thought.  Him and Ginger...
<g>

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank:-0.381
N2002 Rank:+17.59

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldre

What's new in N2003 :)

by Eldre » Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:36:01


writes:

Oh, HELL - I hadn't seen that.  Uh oh...

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank:-0.381
N2002 Rank:+17.59

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldre

What's new in N2003 :)

by Eldre » Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:36:01



>Adaptive speed control for AI

Not *again*...  I had enough of that with GPL...<g>

Meaning, the AI now holds a grudge? :-)

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank:-0.381
N2002 Rank:+17.59

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Marc Collin

What's new in N2003 :)

by Marc Collin » Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:16:14

The pace car jumped off the list for me too.  Must be the only way they
could stop the carnage it often causes.

Marc


Jay Taylo

What's new in N2003 :)

by Jay Taylo » Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:35:11

Actually I dont remember gushing over anything.  My point was that without
any first hand knowledge of the game you have written pretty much everything
in it off.  I find it funny, but it's your right go for it by all means.

I on the otherhand have worked with Papyrus on NR2003 for the past several
months, and have some real first hand knowledge of the product.  When I
first talked with them about working on this product I was interested but
still had doubts about them actually pulling off everything they were
planning.  In that time I saw Grant Reeve turn a very iffy AI, into
something I feel is truely worth racing.  I also saw numerous other
improvements, along with a much improved driving model, mainly due to
increased information from Goodyear, and a huge amount of imput from Manuel
( from Jasper racing).  Is the resulting product every single thing I want?
No, but it's much closer then any previous product.  For all the products
I've be involved with while with Papyrus, I can honestly say this one is the
most solid at release.  So am I biased? Probably but you would be too if
you'd put in as much work on it as I have.
So I guess now you can say I have gushed over it.

If you dont like the game thats your opinion and your welcome to it.  I just
can't take you serious when you at most you've seen a few screen shots and
read a couple reviews, and have decided it's all crap.  My suggestion to you
is that if you feel that strongly, dont buy it.

Jay Taylor


> in contrast to you, who'll gush with superlatives over anything Papy
> comes out with, no matter how piecemeal, incremental, overhyped these
> changes may be?  Offended by someone who would dare demand more "real"
> info in place of hype?   I guess folks like you are just happy as pigs
> in poo cuz Papy's coming out with another rehash of their nascar line.



> >Obviously you've already made your mind up about NR2003, and thats your
> >choice.  Sounds like there isn't much papy could have done to change it
> >since you seem to find something wrong with everything new or improved
> >they've tried to add.   The real question for you is, are you going to go
> >out and buy it so you can have first hand knowledge and attempt to find
> >fault in everything, or will you leave it alone and stick with whatever
else
> >you get enjoyment from.

> >Jay





> >> >As a beta tester for N2003, Papyrus has allowed me to discuss some of
the
> >> >new features that will be included in N2003. The reason I'm giving you
> >guys
> >> >this information is to show you how many things have been added,
changed
> >or
> >> >updated. At 1st look, many may not recognize all the work that has
gone
> >into
> >> >this sim. I can honestly say this is the best & most realistic NASCAR
> >racing
> >> >sim to date :)

> >> Well why would it be worse than anything previously released by Papy?

> >> >Improved physics. Input supplied by actual WC chief engineers

> >> whatever.  does it improve gameplay?

> >> >Tires & grip modeled directly from Goodyear specs

> >> whatever.  does it improve gameplay?

> >> >50 more horsepower

> >> gee whillickers.

> >> >Wall glue less sticky

> >> though still as unrealistic as before?

> >> >Improved AI

> >> "improved" AI has been promised with every new release of Nx.  Can you
> >> tell us if the AI model has been changed from the
> >> "one-lp-file-to-rule-them-all" approach (hey I just saw Two Towers so
> >> forgive me here) to a model where each car behaves uniquely?  Or in
> >> other words, what happens when you're at the head of a train and slam
> >> on the brakes?  Does every car in the train behave exactly the same
> >> way?  Does  the 10th car back magically know when to brake?

> >> Also, what happens if you park in the middle of the track at Marty?
> >> Do AI cars behave as if they have a spotter, or do they continue to
> >> slam headlong into a pile of cars?

> >> >Improved graphics

> >> the least important element of any serious sim that gets far too much
> >> focus during development.

> >> >Improved sounds (in car, replays, menus)

> >> as above.

> >> >Actual WC setups
> >> >Updated tracks
> >> >Realistic weather that changes during sessions and race

> >> what about realistic marble buildup on the high groove and near the
> >> wall?  What about other dynamic track surface changes?

> >> >Live weather updates shown on F1 screen
> >> >Tire temps now start out warmer or colder depending on track weather
> >> >Pace car is now a ghost car

> >> to avoid what?  AI that's still wonky?

> >> >Far-chase driving view

> >> Ahh, so it's more like lesser Nascar sims.

> >> >Adjustable***pit view
> >> >Off-line league support in exported standings
> >> >Polling & vote system
> >> >Additional admin. commands
> >> >Advanced controller options
> >> >Advanced graphic options
> >> >Gamma & brightness options

> >> wow, this is new.  Stop the presses!

> >> >Shadows options. On ground from cars & structures. Shadows on cars
from
> >> >other cars & structures as well as into***pit
> >> >Reflections on structures
> >> >Solar effects
> >> >Track lighting
> >> >Hard core mode

> >> which is what?  Is there a soft core setting?

> >> >Windshield buildup
> >> >Bumpy tracks accurately modeled
> >> >3d crowds

> >> as above, a graphical update that is meaningless during the a race.

> >> >Stability driving aid
> >> >Animated objects (planes, blimps, helicopters)

> >> oooh yeah, so I can spend less time watching cars around me and more
> >> at useless crap.

> >> >Animated flags indicating wind direction
> >> >Opponent pit crew & pit box option
> >> >Improved pit crew graphics
> >> >Ability to set pit stop frequency
> >> >Adaptive speed control for AI

> >> an unpopular GPL option comes to Nx just to add another line in the
> >> "what's new" section.

> >> >Auto option for setting AI behavior that adjusts itself automatically
> >based
> >> >on past performances

> >> this is the same as above.

> >> >Damage remodeled

> >> why, cuz it sucked before?  Does it still suck now?

> >> >Driver hand movements on wheel in rear chase view

> >> again, stop the presses!

> >> >Texture filtering options
> >> >Smaller fuel tanks at restrictor tracks

> >> is this modelled physically, or are you saying that F3 now shows less
> >> max fuel?

> >> >Updated rules & penalties

> >> Papy hasn't done much with this series since N2.  For instance, would
> >> be nice to put in a replay->avi/mpg/wmv converter.  Or hey, what about
> >> a career mode?

> >> Feel free to flame, just playing devil's advocate.

Dave Boyl

What's new in N2003 :)

by Dave Boyl » Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:14:16


That is a key interest to me as I've spent most of the last 12 months
dealing with the AI in NR2002. You wouldn't happen to have any insight on
the *extremely* sensitive lp lines? What I mean is, the AI in NR2002 are so
sensitive to even the very slightest imperfections in the lp lines. Because
of this, they are inconsistent even on the Papyrus made tracks (much less
most user made ones). Which leads to higher grip settings for the AI (which
cause a whole new set of problems). Is NR2003 any different in this respect?

If you don't know the specifics, is there anyone that I can talk to who
does?

Thanks,

Dave Boyle

Proud member of
www.theuspits.com

David G Fishe

What's new in N2003 :)

by David G Fishe » Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:34:32

Been and went already. You probably missed me because my response was pretty
bland. Only the Papy fan boys have the required misery to really rip into
sims.

David G Fisher



> "PAGING D.G. FISHER - MR. FISHER TO THE DESK PLEASE!!"

> --
> ed_


> > Improved physics. Input supplied by actual WC chief engineers
> > Tires & grip modeled directly from Goodyear specs
> > 50 more horsepower
> > Wall glue less sticky
> > Improved AI
> > Improved graphics
> > Improved sounds (in car, replays, menus)
> > Actual WC setups
> > Updated tracks
> > Realistic weather that changes during sessions and race
> > Live weather updates shown on F1 screen
> > Tire temps now start out warmer or colder depending on track weather
> > Pace car is now a ghost car
> > Far-chase driving view
> > Adjustable***pit view
> > Off-line league support in exported standings
> > Polling & vote system
> > Additional admin. commands
> > Advanced controller options
> > Advanced graphic options
> > Gamma & brightness options
> > Shadows options. On ground from cars & structures. Shadows on cars from
> > other cars & structures as well as into***pit
> > Reflections on structures
> > Solar effects
> > Track lighting
> > Hard core mode
> > Windshield buildup
> > Bumpy tracks accurately modeled
> > 3d crowds
> > Stability driving aid
> > Animated objects (planes, blimps, helicopters)
> > Animated flags indicating wind direction
> > Opponent pit crew & pit box option
> > Improved pit crew graphics
> > Ability to set pit stop frequency
> > Adaptive speed control for AI
> > Auto option for setting AI behavior that adjusts itself automatically
> based
> > on past performances
> > Damage remodeled
> > Driver hand movements on wheel in rear chase view
> > Texture filtering options
> > Smaller fuel tanks at restrictor tracks
> > Updated rules & penalties

Jay Taylo

What's new in N2003 :)

by Jay Taylo » Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:59:09

Dave,
The way the AI use the lines has changed alot.   When you see the AI in
NR2003 you should see them able to move around between the lines and set up
for passes much more effectively then they ever did in the past.  I think
you'll find the AI now drive the lines much more like the player does.

As for the lines themselves, the smoother the line the faster and more
realistically the AI will race.   The more irregular the dlat postions the
harder time the AI have running smoothly around the track. Most of the
"aftermarket" lp's I've seen appear to have been hand edited in  text, and
converted into the lp format. While this works, it really is not a good way
of doing it.  It's almost impossible for a person to sit down and figure out
dlat transitions in and out of corners, and thru various other areas of the
track. What you end up with are lines that are  un-natural enough that the
AI look very mechanical trying to follow them.  I have run new lines for
every track in 2003 and I think you'll find the AI much smoother in general.
There is much more to it then this but I'm unsure right now how much more I
can go into it.

Jay Taylor




> > In that time I saw Grant Reeve turn a very iffy AI, into
> > something I feel is truely worth racing.

> That is a key interest to me as I've spent most of the last 12 months
> dealing with the AI in NR2002. You wouldn't happen to have any insight on
> the *extremely* sensitive lp lines? What I mean is, the AI in NR2002 are
so
> sensitive to even the very slightest imperfections in the lp lines.
Because
> of this, they are inconsistent even on the Papyrus made tracks (much less
> most user made ones). Which leads to higher grip settings for the AI
(which
> cause a whole new set of problems). Is NR2003 any different in this
respect?

> If you don't know the specifics, is there anyone that I can talk to who
> does?

> Thanks,

> Dave Boyle

> Proud member of
> www.theuspits.com

William Bradsha

What's new in N2003 :)

by William Bradsha » Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:04:13


I'm gonna throw in some customer (past and future) opinions.

I would've liked to have seen the wall glue done away with completely. It's
completely unrealistic in any game that showcases itself as a simulation.
Heck, even NASCAR Thunder 2003 managed to model damage and some aero effects
on the left and right side of the car without the need of wall glue. Dirt to
Daytona even more so. Call me nuts, but I think wall glue has the ability to
do more damage than good.

Since I enjoy offline racing, I have to applaud Papy for this one.
Everything I've read has nothing but good things to say about the AI. Can't
wait to race against 'em.

Like someone else mentioned, I always enjoyed hitting the pace car from time
to time. :-) Furthering the "ghost" idea, it would've been great if a admin
could set a option so car contact would be ignored between players. When
you're on a shoddy 56K connection, you tend to realize the beauty of the
idea.

I'm e***d about this. The one thing I hated was how the in-game view was
depicted. I think someone forgot that when you model a in-game view, they
should also take into account how far the person is sitting away from their
monitor. This is false if you sit with your nose up against the screen. ;-)

Also, where's the option for a***pit mouselook? I guess no one realizes
how immersive it would be to plug in some VR glasses, head tracking hardware
and play a sim. And, it's not a impossible thing to happen. Glasses would
run you about $100, and head tracking about the same price...if not cheaper.
Hell, I'd gladly put up with crappy interior modelling away from the 3
internal views, in return for the ability to look around.

This would've been cool to see. Too bad they took it out, as you stated
below. If this title was designed for PC's of tomorrow, then I feel it
would've made the experience even better.

I'm also going to throw in a in-race game save feature, just for shits and
giggles. If the game is able to record a entire race, including car
position, speed, fuel, etc, then you'd think they would be able to create
something to save the game. If it were me, I'd only make the option
available while in your pit stall, though. And yes, amazingly, some of us
don't always have the time to sit down for a 3-4 hour race. Reasons range
from having a wife or kids to tend with, or work. However, it won't happen
in the game. Nor any of the above listed ideas.

These are just my opinions of what I would have liked to see. Regardless of
what anyone thinks, I like to pretend I'm entitled to them. And, I'm proud
to say I can't wait until NR2003 is on the market so I can buy my copy. :-)

-Will

Dave Boyl

What's new in N2003 :)

by Dave Boyl » Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:03:33


*Almost* impossible is true ;). I think I've made the smoothest lp lines out
there (including anything from Papyrus), so I know what goes into them,
heheh. As you said it is difficult and time consuming, which is why I was
wondering whether or not NR2003 is more forgiving. The methods I use now are
limited as to what I can do (and still produce smooth lines). If NR2003 is
just as sensitive as NR2002, then I need to develop a new procedure (which
will require some innovative formulas to say the least, heheh). I've been
putting it off until the release just in case it's not needed ;).

I know there are replay to lp converters out there, but I'm not really
satisfied with the results they produce.

Thanks,

Dave Boyle

Proud Member of
www.theuspits.com

David G Fishe

What's new in N2003 :)

by David G Fishe » Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:05:27







> > > > Jason won't like all those arcade features.

> > > > BTW, I thought the in car FOV in N2002 was accurate. Makes all those
> > endless
> > > > threads debating the issue seem stupid now that Papyrus has made it
> > > > adjustable.

> > > Stupid? Like when you said this?

> > > "NASCAR sims are easy and very boring. Turning left is hardly a great
> > > skill." -- David G Fisher

> > It took me about .0001 of a second to know that you're trying to get me
in
> > trouble with the RASCAR guys by posting that little quote.

> > Try not to be so obvious.

> > David G Fisher

> What you said was about the sim, not about your fellow drivers.  I'll
> let you know when you're in trouble, Dave.

> :)

Gerry actually posted that quote before I think, in the hopes it turns
everyone in RASCAR against me. He has a lot of time to waste, so he goes
through all of my posts and hopes to find something he can copy/paste to use
against me. :-o

I said that a couple of years ago in response to a NASCAR guy who started a
thread ripping into F1 and their drivers. At the time, N2002 wasn't even
around (understand Gerry?), and I didn't like N4 at all. I still think
offline NASCAR sim racing is boring to me though. I enjoy the RASCAR races A
LOT because I'm racing with familiar names who are excellent drivers, in an
excellent atmosphere. I don't race any other time online with N2002 anymore
actually. As for the "easy" comment, N2002 is a lot easier than the F1 sims
I race. Getting two similiar turns right per lap will always be easier than
trying to get 14 (many completely different) just perfect.

Sorry Gerry, I don't really take any of that back. Things HAVE changed
though because a new NASCAR sim has come out that's significantly better
than what was available at the time that quote was made.

David G Fisher

Tony Rickar

What's new in N2003 :)

by Tony Rickar » Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:12:13


> Only the Papy fan boys have the required misery to really rip into
> sims.

Hey - you're on probation

Tony
The Good Old Boys Network

bertr

What's new in N2003 :)

by bertr » Tue, 21 Jan 2003 00:04:47


> Well, how do you expect a pre-dx9 card to support dx9 unless the card
> manufacturer comes up with new dx9 drivers?

Exactly my point, John.  If DX9 is indeed REQUIRED, and no DX9-compatible driver is
developed for your videocard, I guess you're out of luck.....  8-(

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