rec.autos.simulators

Wow, that was the most stupid reply I ever read here on r.a.s. <g>

How can you just compare C:PR to any of Papyrus's titles ?? Darn Indy500:
The Simulation had better AI than C:PR !!!!! (and you can't say that it's
untrue).

Did Papyrus ever producted a BAD simulation racing game ? NO.

Does ALL Papyrus titles elevated the line in great simracing games each time
a new one was on stores ? YES.

Look at Papy's road:

Indy500:The Simulation     Great Sim. I still play with it. Awesome AI.
Still a reference IMHO

Icr1:  Wow great Sim. Great for that time. In the top of the notch. Good AI
and fun to drive.

Nascar1:  With 500 000 copies (and more with full installation copies), how
can you say that this isn't a great sim.  I still race with it.  awesome.

Icr1 trackpack + Nascar1 trackpack:  Better track layout each time. Indy
track for Icr1, SearsPoint and C***te for N1 were great tracks for that
time.

Icr2:  Wow great simengine.  Great graphics, awesome 3D version. Great AI

Nascar2: The reference in Simracing presently.  With NROS it's at the top
and unbeatable.

SODA: One of the best Game engine and AI ever since Indy500.  It is soooo
great to race on those dirt tracks.

N2 BGN trackpack:  WOW! You can easily see the graphic improvments in 1
year.  Texas, Hickory, California. Great tracks.

In the Future:  GPL.  Probably the biggest challenge for Papyrus. It WILL be
the best sim ever when it's out. Any REAL simracer knows that. We are all
waiting for that title.

N3: How can you improve (N3) an improvment (N2) of a great game (N1) ???
Redo the game engine, add-in feature and incorporate the NROS in the game.
wow with even some of the features of NascarManager in it as I heard.

Reno Air Racer:  Papyrus will try another type of racing with this title. I
am sure it will be 100% Papy quality and best of the best. Btw I hope we
will talk about it HERE in r.a.s. , not those Simflying newsgroups <g>

So tell me here if Papy ever produced a ***simracing title ?? NO. And
their next products WILL be as good as their old brothers.

Microsoft:  CART:PR.  Normal all-around Sim. new features but lacks in many
places. Poor AI. Bad framerate even in top of the notch PC's. Worst than Gp2
in framerate.  Still isn't considered as in the top of simracing titles for
us the serious simracers in general.

UbiSoft:  F1RS.  Normal All-around Sim.  Awesome graphics, but many bugs and
missed features.  with a patch it could easily be the best F1 sim ever. But
Papy never had a F1 sim.  They will and it will be the best ever.

Microprose: WC.  On of the best simracing title ever. Very fun to race. This
is the only awesome non-papy simulation racing title.

Gp2: Great sim but misses some features.

Francois Menard
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

New to the place?

Well, better sound, maybe.

Did papyrus get flamed brutally and unmercifully for every simulation
game it put out? YES. Bottom line is, the only way to know if a sim is
any good in this newsgroup is to count the number of *** threads
still bouncing around flaming it 1 month after it is released. People
*forget* crappy sims very quickly, they just don't get talked about.
ICR2 got flamed so brutally, so despicably, so incredibly nastily,
that I think it had something to do with why Papy said it would never
put out another Indy sim. God, that was a horrible period in this
group.

I played the Rendition native version on a P200 using a V1000 card the
the framerate was VERY impressive.

--
Eric T. Busch

http://ebusch.akorn.net

I'm afraid due to licensing issue's I really can't comment on what
tracks were or were not in place.  While I don't have anything to
compare the tracks to (I've never really seen any of them in real life),
graphically they were far superior to those used in N2.

--
Eric T. Busch

http://ebusch.akorn.net

Not if it was up to Papyrus ... this is a 3dfx project and they aren't
going to be selling it -- Papryus would have made us wait until N3 came
out .. and of course we have to buy it (n3).

They didn't fix it when they did have the license -- haven't you been
following this NG long enough to know that ?  There are a ton of things
that could be upgraded in ICR2 ...  it was abandoned.  Much like GP2

What they did regarding the N2-3dfx patch -- again, if it was up to
Papy, we'd have to buy n3 to get it ...

Doug

I agree with ymenard on this one. Imho, Papy has been and continues to be
the leader in racing sims, heck racing their sims is all I ever do anymore.
It's incredible what they have accomplished with the Nros. Racing door to
door with mulitple drivers is incredible. I've dabbled in other games/sims,
and I would consider Papy's work to be the most complete I have bought. I
have yet to be dissapointed in any of their products, and I eagerly await
their next release. Can't think of any other *** company I would say
that about. I'm really looking forward to reno racer, as I used to be
involved in radio control pylon racing, and always thought it would be
great if someone like Papy did an air racing sim,  plus it would be nice to
be able to use my f16 flcs w/ tqs every now and then. <g>
--
Don Burnette
Music City Racing
Dburn on Ten

What did SPA look like...?? What did the Eau Rouge look like...ooooh
man I cannot wait for this sim...man o man I dont have enough money
for all the cool stuff coming...

PAPA DOC

Hiya,

This sim sounds so awesome... my love of GP racing was born poring over a 60's
era GP review book with Jim Clark, Jacky Ickx (sp!?), and this era racers....
I'm REALLY looking forward to this sim, also as a new open-wheel work from
Papyrus...

In response to he who asked about ICR2 and Stealth II, it can be patched, but
the mirrors are funky (ghost cars, you can barely make them out, the image is a
square that spills out over the edges of the mirror frame) and the top of the
***pit is cut off in a straight line.  I  REALLY hope Papyrus and/or Rendition
will take the time to fix this soon, as it's not fixed in the "new" release
CART Racing which advertises complete Rendition compatibility.  See Bjorn's
Rendition page for the update file and some help on the web board on this...
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Colin Taber
Snake Racing
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Eric,
Thanks for the update on GPL.  As always you keep us on the cutting edge :-).
Will you please use some of your pull and get papy working on a superbike or
better yet a Supercross/Motocross sim...not another arcade bike game.  
Thanks,
Gary

There are reasons the SODA 3dFX patch isn't here yet. They ain't just
messing with us y'know! This is one of the problems around here. We
*** when there's no response from software companies, then when we
do force them into telling us something we *** if it doesn't happen.
Not to defend Software Allies on this issue, if it really was unclear
when a 3dFX patch would be available then a date/timescale should
never have been mentioned. Still, you can see how frustrating it is
for them as well as us.

Naturally you have conclusive proof of this....? You don't?! You're
just speculating?!  If there was no demand for 3dFX support there
would be no reason for Papyrus to dedicate the manpower and resource
to putting it in place. If there IS demand for 3dFX support they will
do it.

Fix....what? AFAIK Papyrus worked long and *** a patch for ICR2,
and patched the issues that we complained about. Paintkit bug, Phoenix
handling changing throughout a session, etc etc. IMO they were
definitely tardy with this, and I recall giving them quite a
lambasting for it at the time (memories are short around here
obviously, since I am now perceived to be exactly the opposite it
seems. Ah well). So now everything promised is in the game. I don't
see what you can then expect? Release a product, have it working
correctly and deliver on everything you promised - that's the remit of
a software company. To then continue to assign resources to further
develop that product in the knowledge that it will not generate any
more money or increase sales is _madness_, and a recipe for going out
of business. The vast majority of products with long term support are
third-party support - Quake levels, TCs, MTM tracks, ICR2 carsets etc
etc. Even companies who do support products like Total Annihilation,
do so because they promised they would as part of the marketing.
They're only delivering on what they promised.

Any development that Papyrus did for ICR2 would have to be in the form
of a new product. I love ICR2 and would dearly like to get a version
with 3dFX and networking support. At the same time I wouldn't wish
Papyrus to devote time to that at the expense of other products. I'd
rather they took their time, did it to the best of their ability, and
sold it as a new product. I'd pay the money all over again if I could
get GP2 with 3dFX support and networking (provided it really worked
well), and I wouldn't expect someone to put further effort into
expanding on a product that was already finished and working properly.

Fixing something that _isn't_ working properly and _doesn't_ live up
to what was promised is entirely different, hence my complaints about
CPR and the roasting given to Papyrus over the delay in patching ICR2.

a) You don't know that. b) Since it wasn't part of the original spec
and yet we bought N2 anyway, why should that be a problem?

Scenario 1 : N2 is released according to the published spec, with no
3dFX support. Papy start working on NASCAR3, but clamour for 3dFX
support moves them to divert programming resource to that project.
N2-3dFX is released, and support is required to continue working on
the patch, fixing any issues with NROS play etc. Consequently NASCAR3
is delayed by some months.

Scenario 2 : N2 is released as above. Clamour for 3dFX is great, but
Papyrus decide to concentrate on developing NASCAR3 which will give
3dFX support in addition to a whole host of other features, being
based upon the new game engine of Grand Prix Legends. NASCAR3
available on schedule.

IMO NASCAR2 is not soooooooo in need of a 3dFX patch that I can't play
without it, and I'd rather see more effort put toward NASCAR3 and
further enhancing the next generation product. If enough people really
really want N2-3dFX then fine, I'm happy to play it, but I don't think
it's a must.

Cheers!
John

Mr. Burg:

If you really have this much problem with Papyrus, why don't you stop
buying their products?  That would be a very easy solution and it
would keep you from wasting so much Internet Bandwitdth on posts like
these.

Also, why do you question Eric Busch?  This guy has been around longer
than most everyone else.  He knows his stuff, tells it like it is, and
is just generally a great guy.  

OK, I'm going back to my race at Hickory.  Oh, and by the way, the
ability to save games in N2 was a patch (ie..Papyrus does not abandon
their products).

Lee

If you follow the thread, you will see that the thread hasn't involved
Mr. Busch since his early post.

Doug

==========================

Subject:         Re: Will SODA support 3dfx?
  Date:         8 Oct 1997 10:27:30 -0500

    To:         Doug Burg

We're going to release a 3dfx patch for the game in a month or two.

===========================

a month or two would have been between early November and early
December.  Now they are saying next year...  I'll believe it when it
runs ...  Frankly, I'm darn glad I didn't buy the game expecting the
3dfx patch to be quickly forthcoming.  Because it'll be a while.  Which
is typical of big-who-gives-a-crap-about-the-customer software houses.
And Papy/Sierra ain't the worst .. not by far.  They are working on
something else and SODA's 3dfx patch has been relegated to 2nd or 3rd or
33rd priority ...  forget all the people who already bought it and can't
adequately run it.

Look, I've never said this here before, but I work for CUC/Cendant (the

employee prices.  I'd be really ticked if I paid full retail for it ...
but the point is this.  Two months ago they were saying it would be out
by now.  Now its not even close ...

Well the tech guy (Yanaiah) posted on the Motorsports support message

and he has repeatedly said the same thing.  It is only recently that he
has acknowledged that 3dfx Inc was doing the patch with Papy's
permission.  So I again, say, if it was up to Papy we'd have to buy a
new game to get it ...  how can you argue with that?

Look, if you are telling me that there are not areas where ICR2 could be
improved, then it's not worth arguing over.  I think the non-accelerated
version is very weak in the graphics version and most people with 3d
cards can't run it in an accelerated mode because they don't have
Rendition cards, they have 3dfx.

They must have a CART license or they would not have been able to change
the box.  That being the case, why are they not improving the game and
releasing a new version (call it ICR3 if you will)... ?  The only answer
is that they have abandoned the product and there will be no ICR3 --
just like there will be no GP3 (or so we are lead to believe...).  So
why is Papy abandoning the ICR/CART product line?  Who knows ... but
that's apparantely what they did.  ICR2 is still very popular to this
day (otherwise they would not have bothered repackaging it)...

I didn't buy N2 -- I won't buy a game that needs acceleration that
doesn't support 3dfx.
And I won't buy it until the patch is reportedly working as seen here in
RAS.

I don't buy it -- if they had time to do BGN they have time to do the
patch ...

N2 folks are left high and dry if it was not for 3dfx inc ...

Well I'll agree to disagree.  I've played it without acceleration and I
don't like it.

Doug

That's b/c you and others have managed to quickly change the thread.  My
intentions were to give everyone some insight into an upcoming product,
nothing more.  If you look back you'll see that I've tried to answer
each and every post that deals with the topic at hand, namely GPL.

--
Eric T. Busch

http://ebusch.akorn.net