rec.autos.simulators

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

David Montan

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by David Montan » Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:59:35

It's my understanding that in F1 and CART the inside car needs to be at
least halfway alongside the outside car before the outside car turns in for
the apex for the corner to belong to the inside car... any less and the
inside car should give way.  At least that's how I (try to) drive on VROC.
Is this also true in Nascar?  Are the rules any different on ovals?  Yeah,
I'm asking b/c the Gordon/Stewart incident at Bristol, but I may also run
Nascar races online in the future, too.
Your help is always appreciated,
David
George Majo

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by George Majo » Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:13:33

If im under someone im not backing out, im racing
Tony Jeste

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by Tony Jeste » Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:02:54

Well, in GPL, you have to be pretty far forward to be seen.  If I can't
see you, then I will most likely turn in.  Then YOU have caused the
accident IMO.  That's not racing, that's arrogant stupidity.

-Tony-


> If im under someone im not backing out, im racing

Jan Verschuere

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by Jan Verschuere » Tue, 27 Mar 2001 18:01:01

As long as you're alongside the corner can only be half "yours", it's the
same for both the inside and the outside car.

Jan.
=---

Tom Pabs

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by Tom Pabs » Tue, 27 Mar 2001 18:03:30

Well David....
As a practical matter, your description (F1 and CART) are accurate....as to
the generally accepted "gentlemen's" agreement among open wheel
drivers....on road courses.  The matter in F1 and CART....is as much an
issue of "no fenders".....as it is one of turn/apex ownership.  Generally
speaking, two open wheel cars coming together in any side by side situation,
results in the day/race being over for both drivers....or much worse.

Such is not the case obviously with closed wheel race cars.

And it is certainly not the case when racing on oval speedways.  The "oval"
part of the track is not a "turn" as we think of the term in road racing.
And while there are exceptions to the "multiple racing lane/line" being
pre*** on oval speedways....for the most part, there are two lanes
(sometimes three) that represent racing lines around the track.....cars can
be equally fast in either, depending on how they are set up....or, how their
"setup" has come in....so to speak....to the current laps on the tires and
track conditions (and weight of the car, etc.).  You will often hear these
referred to as "on the bottom" (the lower lane next to the inside yellow
stripe) or "up top" (next lane up) and so forth.  In NASCAR...and most forms
of oval track racing.....it is generally accepted that the car (driver) is
always entitled to the real estate they currently occupy (meaning the lane
they are in)....and if they move out of that lane and make car
contact.....its their fault (the flip side of that being, if you remain in
your lane...and another competitor moves out of theirs.....and hits
you...its their fault).

Now.......what really goes on between drivers on the track...... is the good
sense (racing sense) that drivers have...or lack...with regard to knowing
when another car is encroaching on your territory.....but its being done
unavoidably by the other driver.  Sometimes you "yield" your lane to avoid
an accident......period!  Other times you stray into another lane by
mistake.......sometimes by "chance" and often it is even unavoidable (your
car is pushing and it just won't hold a line).....and, "yes" sometimes you
do it on purpose!

I saw the "incident" between Gordon and Stewart today too.  I also had taped
the race, so I was able to playback the "replay" several times.  If I was
the NASCAR official in charge....I would have blamed the incident on
Stewart......and had nothing else transpired...chalked it off to a "racing
accident."  Gordon was clearly "on the bottom".....Stewart was clearly
coming down from the next lane up.....when the "contact" occurred.  And, how
they each got into that position isn't really too important......especially
in the last 10 laps at Bristol.  Gordon was entitled to the real estate his
car occupied...as was Tony.  But, Tony's car appears to come down into the
bottom lane.....granted he's ahead of Gordon....but not enough that his left
rear clears Gordon's right front.....as Tony's car comes into the bottom
lane.  At Bristol.....the car on top of an exchange like that is going to
lose!  There isn't a good race car driver anywhere in the world....let alone
in NASCAR....that will back out of the throttle...racing in the last 10 laps
at any track...and they are on the bottom!  If Stewart wanted the bottom
lane....then it was his responsibility to clear Gordon's car......period!
One exceptional bit of circumstance to add to all of this .....is that
produced by the car physics of the Bristol track itself.  The high banking,
relatively short radius turns....mean the cars are not traveling all that
fast (certainly not as fast as they run through the high banks at Talladega
or Daytona).....and if you let out of the throttle.......even so slightly
too much......your car is going to come down the banking as it slows....even
a mile an hour or two!  That's why I say...."it was Stewarts's fault.....but
chalk it off to a racing accident."  I don't think Tony was intentionally
trying to take the bottom away from Gordon.  If he was, he would have done
so on the entry.....not in the middle or almost in the middle of the turn.

What happened subsequently....is an entirely different matter.  I have not
been to FOX, NASCAR.com....or read lower than this r.a.s. post...so I'm
unaware of any "news" about what NASCAR's "response" was (or is) to Stewart
ramming Gordon on pit road following the checkered.  I know, you could sense
even Darrel Waltrip's "shock" at what Stewart did.  Even though Darrell was
trying to make a joke of it......regarding Tony apparently "losing his
brakes".....you could see (hear) he was embarrassed by Stewart's actions.  I
was embarrassed by Stewart's action.  I think most race car drivers would
be........since that type of behavior is not acceptable under any conditions
for any reason what so ever.  For a celebrity race car driver to pull
something like that.....is embarrassing to all race car drivers......who
don't want the fans.....or none drivers.....to think that's "ok" to do!
This is not about being a Stewart fan....or a Jeff Gordon fan.......heck, if
Dale himself came down from heaven to race for a day.....I'd be all over him
for doing something like Tony did today at Bristol!  That was wrong, that
was flagrant....and that was completely disrespectful to racing....and every
person in it.....past, present and future!  I hope they throw the book at
him!  In fact, had Tony been going just a little faster.....its possible he
could have been arrested for that stupid move.  You do that on the
street....and its called "attempted ***, or an attempt to do bodily harm
or property damage with a lethal weapon.....a car!"  That's a felony....and
it has a mandatory prison sentence.  My God, what was Tony thinking?  Did he
think he'd just finished a pickup race on Sierra.com at Bristol?

It will take something quite extraordinary for Tony Stewart to ever have my
respect again.  What's worse, I think when he looks at the tape...he'll see
that Gordon did nothing intentional....that, in fact....it was his own fault
he got spun by Jeff.  I'd be looking for my hari-kari belt and candle if I
was Stewart tonight!

Tom Pabst

Neil Rain

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by Neil Rain » Tue, 27 Mar 2001 18:01:17

This is quite an interesting problem in VROC (and F1, as it happens!).

I've found that the best policy if someone tries to dive inside me is
actually to take a wider line rather than trying to shut the door - you can
still keep them behind you, and it gives them a chance to realise their
mistake and avoid hitting you.

As Frentzen discovered at Australia, it may be the following guy's fault,
but you can still end up worse off!  If he had taken a *slightly* wider
line, Barrichello would have been able to avoid him, but would still not
have been able to overtake.

I've been told that the convention in '67 was to stick to your own half of
the track if there is any overlap - this seems to work well in T1, as I
normally find that if someone makes a reckless pass, it's better to let them
through and wait for them to drive off the circuit a few corners later!

I do agree that it's normally the following driver's fault if there is any
contact, but it's a good idea to drive defensively at all times!


> Well, in GPL, you have to be pretty far forward to be seen.  If I can't
> see you, then I will most likely turn in.  Then YOU have caused the
> accident IMO.  That's not racing, that's arrogant stupidity.

> -Tony-


> > If im under someone im not backing out, im racing

Karaya On

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by Karaya On » Tue, 27 Mar 2001 18:36:29

Exactly.

Once I'm in the corner its mine. The only way he is getting it back is
either by outrunning me on the outside or pushing me off the track.

I have no intention of backing off each time he might want to pass me and
get into that turn first. I'm racing.

************************************
  Dave Pawlikowski

  www.cushdrive.com
  www.luftwaffe-experten.com
  ICQ - 103134094
"Ah, the Luftwaffe.. The Washington
   Generals of The History Channel."
            Homer Simpson
************************************

Mike Whit

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by Mike Whit » Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:23:11


> I saw the "incident" between Gordon and Stewart today too.  I also had
taped
> the race, so I was able to playback the "replay" several times.  If I was
> the NASCAR official in charge....I would have blamed the incident on
> Stewart......and had nothing else transpired...chalked it off to a "racing
> accident."  Gordon was clearly "on the bottom".....Stewart was clearly
> coming down from the next lane up.....when the "contact" occurred.  And,
how
> they each got into that position isn't really too

important......especially

I didn't tape it so I'll have to wait for a re-airing but I didn't notice
any contact before Gordon had reached the apron.  That would indicate that
Gordon gave up the real estate he was entitled to.  Had he kept his lefts
above the apron, and then Tony came down into him your reasoning would make
sense.

It looked to me that after Gordon reached the apron, and Tony had his lefts
down near the yellow line before Gordon move back onto the track and that
contact is was spun Stewart.  It would seem to me that if a driver breaches
that yellow line he has lost all "rights" to any real estate.

I think they both made bad choices, and Gordon happened to get lucky.

Ian

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by Ian » Tue, 27 Mar 2001 20:02:02

IMHO, that's the type of attitude that causes all the T1 crashes in online
racing.
It's better to back off and live to fight another day than push a risky
move.

--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spam>


Mike Eppe

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by Mike Eppe » Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:48:35

So you're the one causing all the T1 pileups!!!

The race goes for n-many laps, not just one corner.  I am sick and tired of
guys that have to win the race in the first corner.  So many VROC racers
know nothing about racecraft: picking your spot, looking for weaknesses,
forcing errors, etc.  What you guys need is a NHRA sim, then you can leave
the corners to people who know how to race.

--MikeE

Steve Blankenshi

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by Steve Blankenshi » Wed, 28 Mar 2001 00:23:40

I caught an interview with Stewart on the tube last night; after seeing the
video, he admitted it was his fault, apologized to his sponsors, etc..
Clearly he came down on Gordon after he'd gotten a bit high.  Said he just
didn't see him "on my fender".  Sounds like some online races, eh?

Best sim strategy is; if you miss your apex and someone sticks a nose under
you, stay wide and keep as much steam as possible going into the next
straight/turn.  If you chop 'em off you're probably both done, at least
until online racing becomes more tolerant of car contact.

Cheers,

Steve B.



> > I saw the "incident" between Gordon and Stewart today too.  I also had
> taped
> > the race, so I was able to playback the "replay" several times.  If I
was
> > the NASCAR official in charge....I would have blamed the incident on
> > Stewart......and had nothing else transpired...chalked it off to a
"racing
> > accident."  Gordon was clearly "on the bottom".....Stewart was clearly
> > coming down from the next lane up.....when the "contact" occurred.  And,
> how
> > they each got into that position isn't really too
> important......especially
> > in the last 10 laps at Bristol.  Gordon was entitled to the real estate
> his
> > car occupied...as was Tony.  But, Tony's car appears to come down into
the
> > bottom lane.....granted he's ahead of Gordon....but not enough that his
> left
> > rear clears Gordon's right front.....as Tony's car comes into the bottom
> > lane.

> I didn't tape it so I'll have to wait for a re-airing but I didn't notice
> any contact before Gordon had reached the apron.  That would indicate that
> Gordon gave up the real estate he was entitled to.  Had he kept his lefts
> above the apron, and then Tony came down into him your reasoning would
make
> sense.

> It looked to me that after Gordon reached the apron, and Tony had his
lefts
> down near the yellow line before Gordon move back onto the track and that
> contact is was spun Stewart.  It would seem to me that if a driver
breaches
> that yellow line he has lost all "rights" to any real estate.

> I think they both made bad choices, and Gordon happened to get lucky.

Uncle Feste

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by Uncle Feste » Wed, 28 Mar 2001 01:21:12


> Exactly.

> Once I'm in the corner its mine. The only way he is getting it back is
> either by outrunning me on the outside or pushing me off the track.

> I have no intention of backing off each time he might want to pass me and
> get into that turn first. I'm racing.

I disagree.  I'll back off enough to avoid the wreck, but not enough
where I'll lose the draft.  As long as I've got the draft there's no
doubt we will be rumbling again later in the race.  The only exception I
make is if I'm going for the win on the last lap.  The last 2 corners
I'm not backing down for nothing.

--

Fester

drinklim

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by drinklim » Wed, 28 Mar 2001 01:34:34

Well I thought it was hilarious.

important......especially

GraDe

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by GraDe » Wed, 28 Mar 2001 02:25:11

No, no, not at all!
There are NO rules for overtaking in any form of motorsport, there is only a
gentlemanly conduct that drivers are supposed to follow.

Nobody can own the corner.
If There is a car to your inside you can stop him from overtaking you if
it's possible but you must let him stay on the track.
If you look to the inside of a driver and clearly see that he is not aware
of you being there or you just aren't far enough along side to make a decent
effort then back out.

Too many drivers seem to have the desire to make an effort at overtaking
even if they know they'll be hit just so they can say they are in the right.

It's only all common sense and chivalry. That's why I sort of defended
Rubens in Melbourne. The TV shots showed he tried to back out (broke very
very hard to stop the car) when he realised he was too far back. Frentzen
had the idea in his head that if he's ahead, he "owns" the corner, so he
turned in much too sharply with a car to your inside, Rubens nose was there
and bam, out goes Heinz. In fairness to Rubens he looked like he tried to
back out but couldn't completely stop his car at that speed! Frentzen took a
very tight racing line as if there wasn't a car in sight hoping that if they
did touch he'd just blame Rubens as "he owned the corner".

Rubbish. It's a race, if you can genuinely make an attempt then you are
entitled to, weather you make it or not.
The lead car does not have a right to take a tight line knowing you'll
touch.

If often find that, the lead car can usually avoid the collision by taking a
slightly later apex so they'll go wide and not hit the car trying to pass
but cut in late making sure they stay ahead.

As far as overtaking "rules" go, they are all in the imagination of
Anti-Schumacher fans :-)

GraDe

How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

by GraDe » Wed, 28 Mar 2001 02:27:05


> Well, in GPL, you have to be pretty far forward to be seen.  If I can't
> see you, then I will most likely turn in.  Then YOU have caused the
> accident IMO.  That's not racing, that's arrogant stupidity.

> -Tony-


> > If im under someone im not backing out, im racing

huh? It's his fault for you not being aware of your surroundings? You'll
make an F1 driver yet :-)

If his on your inside you can fight him but you haven't got the right to
turn in on him.
(people have a terrible habit of turning very early when defending
positions, I don't know why, it makes them slower in corners and makes them
hit a car to their inside.)


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