rec.autos.simulators

DTR.. Is it just me ?

Ron Ayto

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by Ron Ayto » Mon, 08 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Hi,
I have read a lot of praise for DTR, and no doubt a lot of people like
it, but i find the driving model more on a par with driving a speed
boat then a car.
I think it possibly has good fun value, but to me i can't get into it,
because i feel the physics of the demo are a not real enough..
I am not flaming, but voicing my opinion of the demo,  and "Yes", i did
download it and have tried it for two nights in a row, but it just does
not translate the feeling of being in control,  to me..
The sounds of the engine, verses the way it pulls through the gears, is
totally false and gives no feedback to what gear you should be in for
any given circumstance..
I tried it on-line, and the on-line code seems reasonable, but for me,
the thrill of floating around a brown river in a poorly responding
boat, soon wore off..
All of the above is IMO only, as that is the way i find it..
Like i said, i am not flaming DTR, but voicing my opinion to see if any
one else feel the same way, if not, then i guess it must be just me...

Cheers,
Ron

Andrew MacPhers

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by Andrew MacPhers » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

My thoughts exactly. Looks like fun... so it's back to the 'Ring for me
:-)

Andrew McP

Andre Warring

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by Andre Warring » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

You are being VERY carefull telling us that DTR sucks :)

Don't worry Ron, I don't like it either, for exactly the same reasons.

Oh, one thing I also don't like is that the average laptime is between
10-15 seconds...

But I think that a patch with better engine sounds and a replay option
could make DTR more bearable for me...

Andre



Jan Verschuere

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by Jan Verschuere » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

I'm lost too Ron.... no reference frame. Assuming the setups in the demo are
on the conservative side, I don't think there's cause to doubt the
responsiveness of the cars in the final product though.

Question remains... how do you drive one of these things?? -Do you provoke
the slide or just let it happen "naturally" from going in a little too hot??
And... how do you keep it going all the way round the turn? -I just can't
figure it out!

Jan.
----

<snip>

Kevin Anderso

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by Kevin Anderso » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

It's not just you, I think the game is a quality game, and is good addition
to the other fine racing games out right now, But Id rather be racing N3 or
Nascar Legends. Bouncing off the walls on a dirt track just isn't as excitng
as the tracks in Nascar

--
Kevin Anderson


---------------------------------------------------
DK-Racing
#15 K_Anderson
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.awtech.net/
http://www.nascar-3.com/

Pete

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by Pete » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

    It looks like the demo may have a toned down physics model
from the final at 100% realistic!
    The setups are far more difficult to to dial in and go fast than the
default settings in the demo. Hopefully, the sound issue will get resolved
soon as the 3rd party ones we have get inserted into the game.They are
 excellent and have a far great range of frequency, quality and amplitude!

    Pete

Pete

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by Pete » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

    Jan, you are correct about the setups in the demo! In real
life you must throw the cars into the corners and reverse steer
them out. The feed back from the testers on the handling
in the full versions is coming in positive and many are using
real life setups and getting excellent results!

    Pete


Bob Curti

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by Bob Curti » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00


> Question remains... how do you drive one of these things?? -Do you provoke
> the slide or just let it happen "naturally" from going in a little too hot??
> And... how do you keep it going all the way round the turn? -I just can't
> figure it out!

> Jan.

 Jan,

It's difficult to explain, and even more difficult to do consistently, but I'll
give it a try.  I'm no expert, and I've only done it in real life on
motorcycles, but the technique is pretty straightforward.  One thing that may be
working you up is the steering ratio in the demo -- it's set to 40.1 degrees,
which, though you certainly need quick steering, is set way too high for me.

Try to picture yourself driving in a parking lot with hard-packed snow.  If you
try to turn a car that is going too fast for the arc you've chosen, you'll
simply plow ahead.  If you feed in some throttle, the rear end will swing around
and start propelling the car in a tangent to your original line.  This does two
things.  First, it slows the car.  Second, it alters the direction of the car.
If you back the throttle off so that you maintain that angle, the car will
travel in a more or less straight line and at an angle that is more than your
original line but less than the angle formed by your car and your original
line.  Basic stuff.

My technique for entering a turn is to roll off the throttle to the point where
I'm going to maintain my slide, and to use the steering to induce the necessary
oversteer.  You can jump off the throttle and use less steering to get the
oversteer, I find it slows the car too much but for me it's harder to find that
throttle "sweet spot" and consequently I find it harder to be consistent and
smooth.

The trick in dirt track racing is to maintain the best slip angle AND maximum
traction of the powered (rear) wheels.  If you feed in too much throttle your
rear wheels will break traction and the rear end will start to come around.  If
you correct with steering input alone, the car will lose forward speed and
either maintain sideways motion, or worse, slow down.  The whole idea is, with
subtle steering input and throttle control, to maintain maximum FORWARD motion
consistent with the line you're trying to maintain.

As you said, the sound kind of makes keeping track of subtleties in your engine
speed, but you do have the tach to watch.  If you see your engine maxxing out
the tach, you know you're not getting the forward speed you need to come
squirting out of the turn.  That transition from turn to straight, where you
feed in the throttle to maximum and straighten the car out with steering input
is really crucial to fast lap times.  Do it too qickly and you loop.  Do it too
slowly and you get passed.

One thing.  Folks on this NG have scoffed and said that they can maintain full
throttle all around every track.  If you're doing this, you're not going to win
against really competent drivers (And I'm not one of them.).  If you can do
that, you need to drop down a gear so that you have the capability to break the
rear wheels loose at any point in the turn.  At no point during your slide
should your rear wheels have full traction, because that means you're
oscillating between slide and full, straight-line motion.

I know I didn't explain this very well, but I hope it helps some.

--
Bob Curtin
Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange
http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/
"If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy
skin"

Jan Verschuere

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by Jan Verschuere » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

This sounds promising.

Jan.
----

Jan Verschuere

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by Jan Verschuere » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Thanks for the explanation Bob. From what you've said I gather it is done
the way I supposed it was. Basically you keep the car "on the tyres" and use
their tractive capacity to stay in the turn. I can do that.... once in a
blue moon and only when using a late apex (so the yaw angle of the car isn't
quite so impressive).

I think most of the problem is the only dirt type racing I've ever seen is
some Sprint Car crashes on "And They Walked Away..". Like I said: no
reference frame.

Guess I was born a good 3000 miles too far east for this one. Got a lot to
learn.

Jan.

Hot..

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by Hot.. » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00



Well I have to say I do like DTR, im not sure if the driveing model is
correct or not as I havent ever drove a car like these. Anyway I do
see some promblems with the game, 1 is with the AI in the game
there is no way to get them to spin out while raceing them, I have
tried all night lats night 10+ cars in the race and I set the AI level
so I would allways be in the pack, anyway as much as I tried to nudge
them in the backend side to get them to spin there is just no way they
would I have even hit them square on in the rear quarter as im comeing
into a turn and the ***s just seem to apply more opposite lock and
carry on, so to me it looks like the AI is very scripted and doesnt
want to have any driver flaws like a human player, online this is very
diffrent and cars can easy be nudged to spin.

BTW I also have Powerslide the first game by these guys and the AI in
that game definatly make mistakes, much more than in DTR. To me the AI
in DTR feel very canned and boring to race. I will get the game though
as I have many friends who will play this with me and this so far is
where it will be a winner with me.

Also there is a promblem with the use of FF joysticks in this game, I
dont use the FF effects with my Saitek R4 FF as they slow the game
down for me, but because i have them ticked as off in the game it has
taken the tension off the wheel aswell, in the Powerslide game you can
untick FF but the wheel still retains the tension settings.

James Wohlev

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by James Wohlev » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00



Can you say "arcade" driving model for the demo?
I knew you could :)

The retail will have a full driving model.

- James "Gunslinger" Wohlever

Techware Motorsports
http://techware.gtinsider.com

Kenny L

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by Kenny L » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

I'll try to keep it simple.  My Daddy allways told me, "Son, ta go fast in
one of those thingys, ya gotta steer with the back end(throttle), and use
the steering wheel to keep the nose (front end) ahead of the ass (back end)"

Remco Moe

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by Remco Moe » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00


>Can you say "arcade" driving model for the demo?
>I knew you could :)

"arcade" driving model for the demo....yup, I can.

Cool! Too bad I won't buy it, since I am obvious not
the target market. I don't like Arcade games....
(I am sure they would include the "Real" physics in the
demo if they were  proud of it, and since they don't...)

Remco

David B. Harriso

DTR.. Is it just me ?

by David B. Harriso » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Kenny L.   that's the "perfect" explanation. Cause that's exactly how it
is. DBH
Your daddy was a smart man!

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