rec.autos.simulators

CART @ Montreal

ymenar

CART @ Montreal

by ymenar » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 07:26:20


> Its nothing new....jacques villeneuve used GP2 to learn the GP tracks
prior
> to his arrival in F1.

We know David ;)   I mean that's like an old story here.  Just in NASCAR, I
can list dozens of Winston Cup drivers who do now race simulations for
either their entertainment or for something related to their driving.  Same
in F1, just see at Goodwood the presence of Ralf Schumacher at the booth.

I got wrecked by Dale Earnhardt Jr. (and wrecked him) a couple of times, FYI
8)

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-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
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David Powel

CART @ Montreal

by David Powel » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 08:16:08

I know a few of the pundits who are now questioning there initial
conceptions of Montoya, it'll be interesting to see how he progresses.

Like old Senna vs Prost, Senna genius over a single lap, but a flawed racer
(still in the very top %, but there were flaws, leading races and prone to
moments of stupidity, and this is a common fault used when talking about
flaws in ayrton). Where on the other hand Prost was always gentle of machine
and tyres, and usual able to watch and beat senna through having a far
superior ability to drive with his brain, and remain uneffected by his will.
Nigel Roebuck (F1 editor of autosport) says he can only remember 5 oe so
occasions in his entire career in any session that Prost spun a car on his
own. Where Senna was regarded as the outstanding talent because he had raw
speed, and he was outstanding sure, but the approach of Prost was equally
effective come sunday and I;d go so far as to say a small % better overall,
and remember they drove against each in the same team.

Id put Montoya in the Senna type style, but hes not as consistant in his
approach.

Imagine the brains of Senna and the cunning and extremely controlled method
in which prost applied himself both during and after races, youd have the
ultimate racing driver for the modern era, or a Driver made of the best
qualities displayed in two drivers who could be argued as the best ever.

I see holes in Montoyas armour in alot of areas (more than senna), and he's
had more than enough time if he is truely great to have found some filler to
put in them, or one could say, if he is truely great they wouldnt be there
in the first place.

But I'll be keeping an open mind on him, its just this year hes looked
stupid on a  number of occasions, and I dont remember my other rated drivers
making rookie errors on a regular basis in a second season. He's a bit of a
hothead, I hope he chills and uses the grey matter.






> > > But youd really expect that at "national" level huh....

> > > Like montoya, button, rakkionen, massa all out qualling more
experienced
> > > teamates in there first year, adding R Schu and N Heidfeld are no
second
> > > raters, isn't about 10-15laps to find the very limit at the level
expected
> > > from an F1 driver, unless you pay to drive that is :)

> > JPM wasn't even close to RS in last year in qualifying. RS outqualified
him
> > in 11 out of 17 races, usually by a half second or more. When JPM
> > outqualifed him, it was by a hair.

> > Needed a better sim.

> > This year it's 7-6 in favor of JPM, although RS outqualifies JPM by more
on
> > average, has a faster average qualifying time, and a faster average race
lap
> > time.

> Just curious, how many times has Ralf outqualified Michael and put his
> car on the pole this year ? :-)

> Ralf may be the "smarter" driver of the two, for now, but I know at
> least one important person who believes JPM to be "an outstanding
> talent"

> Beers and cheers
> (uncle) Goy

> http://www.theuspits.com

> "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
> --Groucho Marx--

adsale

CART @ Montreal

by adsale » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 08:34:34

"David Powell
snip

The guy I was referring to was Frank Williams who has just signed JPM
for another two years

Yes, JPM is a hothead and could probably use some cooling down time, but
most of the other rookies aren't in a team where they're expected to
take the challenge to Ferrari, except perhaps Kimi which is doing an
outstanding job at McLaren, but McLaren just isn't the team it was a
couple of years ago and nobody is really expecting them to fight for top
honors, Williams on the other hand is generally expected to be a match
for Ferrari, at certain tracks, and on the face of things, Ralf is
handling that pressure a lot better than JPM, no question, but then
again he's been around the block a few times already and knows how to
play the game, and he's probably quite happy about the focus being on
JPM, that way he can go about his business without the press looking
over his shoulder all the time

Yes, only time will tell, and no, I don't think JPM will be the next
Prost, possibly some variant of Senna as you say, but then again, Senna
won a few races in his time too :-)

As for a combo of Prost and Senna's skills, I think MS is the closest
thing we'll ever see to that, except that he doesn't have Prost's
personality on and off the track, he has Senna's, which rubs a few
people the wrong way, including me, if it wasn't for that I'd probably
be a huge fan and rate him as the best modern day F1 driver and very
close to being the top F1 driver ever, possibly THE best ?

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

David Powel

CART @ Montreal

by David Powel » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 09:14:04

Michael is just german, being european i have met alot of them, i like them,
but they have a very individual personality in Europe compared to alot of
other countries. I love them for  there very straight forward and often
bullshitless approach to business. As the german would say of the english,
an english person asks you to do something, a german will tell you, and if
you ask him and not tell him, he will say no and think its a sign of
weekness. This is a loose generalisation but gives the gist of my thoughts
of Michaels attitude, if he was italian he'd be firey and latin etc.

Its just a country thing I think and he didnt get where he has got being mr
nice...but yes you are correct, alot of people think that of him.

Yes Frank has always had a hotspot for Montoya, and he will make a top
driver given the correct machine with which to do battle. Just there has
been this godlike stature attached and surrounding Montoya, and I just feel
at this stage we aren't quite gonna see the next Micheal or Senna, prolly
something inbetween Senna and Keke Rosberg possibly, very talented, very
fast, blows a bit hot and cold, and drives by the feeling in his arse as
long as theres tyres left on the car. Of course thats speculation atm, but
its my gut feeling.

As for Micheal being the best ever, I don't think so, grids in the mid to
late 70's and most of the 80's seemed at times to ooozeeeeeee talent, atm
theres IMO abit of a talent problem since around 1994, alot of old cards
left us that year or one after/before.

mid 80s, Senna, Prost, Mansell, Piquet, Berger, and its late there were more
:) but during the 90's or Schumachers era (yes a more care and team package
effected era) there has only been Micheal and a guy called Hakkinen that
have been fast enough to enter *that club* of drivers. Then also Mika had
huge gaps in his package, but huge natural speed. Michael has almost stood
alone during his reign for me. In the 80's this was a very different story.
Driver are also living longer now, theres less openings in top teams
compared to the 70's as there was a yearly cull of drivers (sad as was).
This means maybe its just part of the era Michael has driven in and you
can;t take him down for that reason but....

As for the best ever cant do it. its just a club, but lets say Prost is
often overlooked in top10 lists and he wasnt spectacular to watch, never
spun or crashed etc. Often its the tightrope drama driver that take the
hearts of fans, like Gilles, godlike gift (maybe the most gifted ever) but
was very much a race to race driver not a look carefully at damage
limitation for a championhip driver. Perfect for firey italian and latin
types they adored gilles like no other, the was for them the modern day
gladiator, prost at ferrari? wouldnt have been loved.

Also IMO Michael has reallllllllllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyy chilled since he
won the champ for ferrari, he used to rub people up and was arrogant but
this has completely evaporated in the last 2years IMO. He's now a perfect
politician who never gets involved in spats, or ***ing sessions, to me now
hes like the prince of F1, setting an example to everyone. But, of course
its easy to be an embassador for F1 after your 5th WDC and a triple WDC run,
wheres the pressure to prove that drove the young Michael to strut like a
chicken down the spa pitlane to *** David Coulthard after he took him
out the GP in 97?....lol a classic incident in his career, and great insight
into the fire inside that driver someone like Michael to reach the levels he
has, its all part of the mindset. Very much present as you say with senna.

thats it i think.....



Gabriel Alban

CART @ Montreal

by Gabriel Alban » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:16:17

Yes it is the same track. JPM pole was 1m12.836s.  Today's da Matta pole was
1:19.465s.


Christopher J. Sypa

CART @ Montreal

by Christopher J. Sypa » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 12:27:17

Let it be known that on Fri, 23 Aug 2002 19:35:39 +0100, "Doug Ellison"




>> Is the track layout the exact same as when F1 runs there?  Curious to see
>> lap time differences.

>I believe it's exactly the same.

>They're about 5s a lap slower if you compare first practice for CART with
>first practice for F1.

>( 1:15.4 vs 1:20.5) - a hell of  alot better than I thought they'd do

I recall hearing that even though they have that lap difference, the CART cars
will hit the same top speed as the F1 cars.
Dave Henri

CART @ Montreal

by Dave Henri » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 12:41:45

  Strange with all this talk about cerebral drivers and heroic
drivers....why no mention of King Hiro?

dave henrie

Wandati

CART @ Montreal

by Wandati » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 13:39:03

If you saw the in-car camera shots of Michael doing his qualifying lap then
you saw true talent.  Not only did he drive a very quick lap, he was playing
with the knobs on his steering wheel the entire time.  I doubt I would have
even stayed on the road at highway speeds if I had been trying to adjust
that many things at once.



> I didnt say he had the upper hand though did I, simply saying he managed
to
> outqual him which is true, but Montoya needs to, quote "realise a GP
weekend
> is more than a banzai lap on Saturday".

> The guy is still somewhat of a mystery to me, Im really getting the
feeling
> hes not as good as he's made out to be, anyone watching any of this years
GP
> races will remembering him cracking, and falling of the road, or coming
> together with 90% of the people hes raced wheel to with, the last race
being
> a perfect example of him losin his head, then losing the track, then
loosing
> most the aero package on the car. Brazil/Nurburgring/Hungary all results
> lost due to basically letting his will take control of his mind.

> The guy has the speed, but thesedays in F1 more than ever with software
> systems and huge ammounts of telemetry and technically advanced nature of
> the whole thing, more like NASA than a motorracing series, you also need a
> brain, I sadly feel the poor guy is rather lacking in the later. He'd have
> made a class act when balls where the main requirement to going fast
though,
> like the 60's, 70's and 80's but today being highly intelligent and
getting
> the most from the car is more important than your ability to withstand
fear.

> Maybe this reflects more on his success in Cart, less technology etc, more
> get in and drive.

> Hes also very very up and down, and has bad days alot of the time compared
> to ralf, if Montoya were truely the great star of the future, he wouldnt
> crack under pressure would have learnt after two races the way to hold
> someone behind in F1 is simply drive 100% normally,and after 4-5years of
> competition in two of the highest series on earth, also he wouldnt have
bad
> days. Youd never see Schumacher having a day bad as bad as Montoyas, even
in
> the late 90's when he wasnt in the best machinery an awful day seemed to
be
> 3rd.

> Micheals second "full" season was a WDC championship, albeit in nearly the
> best machinery in the field, but williams was clearly faster with the less
> talented Damon Hill, which offers the conclusion that the Benetton was no
> Williams. Even in a second year the signs were there. Signs I don't see
with
> Montoya, I do on occasion, like with Hakkinen the genius is there, just
can
> he use it all the time like someone called Michael.

> I await the next 2-3years before I feel I could make a final sumup of
> Montoya.

> Rakkionen on the other hand is proving himself greatly this year, just
> unluckly all those BMW enduced DNF's.





> > > But youd really expect that at "national" level huh....

> > > Like montoya, button, rakkionen, massa all out qualling more
experienced
> > > teamates in there first year, adding R Schu and N Heidfeld are no
second
> > > raters, isn't about 10-15laps to find the very limit at the level
> expected
> > > from an F1 driver, unless you pay to drive that is :)

> > JPM wasn't even close to RS in last year in qualifying. RS outqualified
> him
> > in 11 out of 17 races, usually by a half second or more. When JPM
> > outqualifed him, it was by a hair.

> > Needed a better sim.

> > This year it's 7-6 in favor of JPM, although RS outqualifies JPM by more
> on
> > average, has a faster average qualifying time, and a faster average race
> lap
> > time.

> > David G Fisher

Dave Henri

CART @ Montreal

by Dave Henri » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:23:11


        If I recall correctly, that was not a hotlap...he was just cruising
as he reset the car.  Still that cruising was probably 120mph or so....hehe
nothing different than talking on your cell phone while changing a cd and
eating a Big Mac and slurping on a Coke all at once.
dave henrie

David Powel

CART @ Montreal

by David Powel » Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:17:37

who?


Goy Larse

CART @ Montreal

by Goy Larse » Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:33:21

"David Powell

Hiro Matsushita, drove a Panasonic sponsored car (obviously) in the CART
series for a number of years, gave the term moveable chicane a new
meaning

I'll give him one thing though, he was pretty good at looking in his
mirrors and staying out of everyone's way....most of the time, but then
again, being lapped 5 times on average on a road course does give you a
fair bit of practice, he'd never get an F1 license in a million years
and was the living proof that you can take the regulations too far the
other way, but, with that family name I guess you can buy your way into
anything....except F1, since Bernie has more money than most people :-),
he's now a team owner I believe

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

David Powel

CART @ Montreal

by David Powel » Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:51:40

ahh I guessed he was a Cart driver, as being European Cart really means nowt
to me, as (A) I dont know anything about it, (B) i hate ovals and (C) its
not on TV.

shame for places like rockingham built in the UK, oval track, seen It on TV
for various events, Ascar, FF, F3 etc, but ive yet to see anyone in the
stands watching. Guess we just aint a country of oval lovers. Im sure
Rockingham will be our last oval and our first (unless you rememeber who
started oval racing at brooklands). Fine be me they could built a spot on
road course there, not a mickey mouse infield track and 4 left turns :)

On the other side of the scale its great when 100,000 bikers go to brands
hatch for the World Superbikes, now thats a top day out! where you can sit
behind the armco in places and smell the brakes etc....


Goy Larse

CART @ Montreal

by Goy Larse » Mon, 26 Aug 2002 02:01:50

"David Powell

Well....

A is your loss
B CART is not about ovals, it had road and street courses as well
C It is on TV, just not live anymore, but it used to be

As a fellow European I think it's a grand shame it has declined over the
past couple of years, I used to favor CART over F1, especially in Alex
Zanardi's heydays :-)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

ymenar

CART @ Montreal

by ymenar » Mon, 26 Aug 2002 05:22:36


> Hiro Matsushita, drove a Panasonic sponsored car (obviously) in the CART
> series for a number of years, gave the term moveable chicane a new
> meaning

Nicknamed "King Hiro" after the famous incident between him and Nigel
Mansell (at indianapolis when Hiro stopped over his car I think), when the
radio only caught the end of the conversation which went "...king hiro".
You can easily speculate on what was before that ;-D
ymenar

CART @ Montreal

by ymenar » Mon, 26 Aug 2002 05:27:28


> ahh I guessed he was a Cart driver, as being European Cart really means
nowt
> to me, as (A) I dont know anything about it

"European Cart"? ??  Are you sure you're talking about the good series here?

?  I think you're misleading the IRL for the CART series.  Or perhaps just
your knowledge of motorsports in general <G> .:)    The 2002 season has only
5 oval races in 19 total races, and the 2003 schedules only has 3 oval
tracks in 20 races (Chicago won't be an oval anymore, and the European race
also).

 (C) its

It is on TV even in England.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...


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