rec.autos.simulators

CART @ Montreal

TDRaci

CART @ Montreal

by TDRaci » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 03:16:01

Is the track layout the exact same as when F1 runs there?  Curious to see
lap time differences.

--

Tim Doyle
TDRacin? Online
VRW Team Owner
www.VirtualRacingWorld.com

Doug Elliso

CART @ Montreal

by Doug Elliso » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 03:35:39


I believe it's exactly the same.

They're about 5s a lap slower if you compare first practice for CART with
first practice for F1.

( 1:15.4 vs 1:20.5) - a hell of  alot better than I thought they'd do

Doug

Tom Pabs

CART @ Montreal

by Tom Pabs » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 03:51:14

I'm watching the qualifying session on Speed Channel at the moment.  They
just interviewed Pat Patrick (I think it was him, could have been their team
manager though) and he said that driver Oriol Servia had " gotten a hold of
some good simulation stuff, and has practiced on his computer at home" the
Montreal track and was "completely comfortable with the car and track - the
very first time we rolled it off the truck yesterday."  Wow......I would
guess that meant he used F1-2002 (or 2001) for this?

Did anyone else hear this?

TP


David Powel

CART @ Montreal

by David Powel » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:00:10

Its nothing new....jacques villeneuve used GP2 to learn the GP tracks prior
to his arrival in F1.

I have of quite alot them do it, I heard Massa had learnt every F1 track
with F1 "sims" you can buy in the shops.....


> I'm watching the qualifying session on Speed Channel at the moment.  They
> just interviewed Pat Patrick (I think it was him, could have been their
team
> manager though) and he said that driver Oriol Servia had " gotten a hold
of
> some good simulation stuff, and has practiced on his computer at home" the
> Montreal track and was "completely comfortable with the car and track -
the
> very first time we rolled it off the truck yesterday."  Wow......I would
> guess that meant he used F1-2002 (or 2001) for this?

> Did anyone else hear this?

> TP



> > Is the track layout the exact same as when F1 runs there?  Curious to
see
> > lap time differences.

> > --

> > Tim Doyle
> > TDRacin? Online
> > VRW Team Owner
> > www.VirtualRacingWorld.com

David Powel

CART @ Montreal

by David Powel » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:03:35

sorry i should proof-read more :)

I have heard quite alot of the them do it....



> Its nothing new....jacques villeneuve used GP2 to learn the GP tracks
prior
> to his arrival in F1.

> I have of quite alot them do it, I heard Massa had learnt every F1 track
> with F1 "sims" you can buy in the shops.....



> > I'm watching the qualifying session on Speed Channel at the moment.
They
> > just interviewed Pat Patrick (I think it was him, could have been their
> team
> > manager though) and he said that driver Oriol Servia had " gotten a hold
> of
> > some good simulation stuff, and has practiced on his computer at home"
the
> > Montreal track and was "completely comfortable with the car and track -
> the
> > very first time we rolled it off the truck yesterday."  Wow......I would
> > guess that meant he used F1-2002 (or 2001) for this?

> > Did anyone else hear this?

> > TP



> > > Is the track layout the exact same as when F1 runs there?  Curious to
> see
> > > lap time differences.

> > > --

> > > Tim Doyle
> > > TDRacin? Online
> > > VRW Team Owner
> > > www.VirtualRacingWorld.com

Tom Pabs

CART @ Montreal

by Tom Pabs » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:15:03

Yeah, David......that's been known and talked about in the sim world for
some time.  But, in real-world racing.....those "stories" have been played
down or discounted by the TV networks and team owners and crew chiefs.
However, its becoming more and more openly talked about.  That's what I was
"commenting" about.....you don't usually hear that sort of thing on
TV...especially so "casually stated" as it was by Pat Patrick.

Two weeks ago, we got a call from Tyler Radavich at World Motors Sports, Inc
in Southern CA.  Their driver, Alex Figge wants us to build a simulator for
him to train on over this winter, using one of their wrecked Toyota Atlantic
tubs.  There was a time when this call would have floored me.  Now, its
becoming somewhat routine....although I still get e***d about them when
they happen.  How did Tyler hear about us?  He told me that a Sparco rep had
told him about seeing Jeff Gordon and Robby Gordon running in our simulators
at Sears Point two years ago!  Wow....word of mouth is very powerful stuff!

TP



> Its nothing new....jacques villeneuve used GP2 to learn the GP tracks
prior
> to his arrival in F1.

> I have of quite alot them do it, I heard Massa had learnt every F1 track
> with F1 "sims" you can buy in the shops.....



> > I'm watching the qualifying session on Speed Channel at the moment.
They
> > just interviewed Pat Patrick (I think it was him, could have been their
> team
> > manager though) and he said that driver Oriol Servia had " gotten a hold
> of
> > some good simulation stuff, and has practiced on his computer at home"
the
> > Montreal track and was "completely comfortable with the car and track -
> the
> > very first time we rolled it off the truck yesterday."  Wow......I would
> > guess that meant he used F1-2002 (or 2001) for this?

> > Did anyone else hear this?

> > TP



> > > Is the track layout the exact same as when F1 runs there?  Curious to
> see
> > > lap time differences.

> > > --

> > > Tim Doyle
> > > TDRacin? Online
> > > VRW Team Owner
> > > www.VirtualRacingWorld.com

Tom Pabs

CART @ Montreal

by Tom Pabs » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:16:22

They just "checkered" the qual session.......Servia is 6th!  Yikes....never
been there before and trained on his sim at home!  Wow!

TP


> I'm watching the qualifying session on Speed Channel at the moment.  They
> just interviewed Pat Patrick (I think it was him, could have been their
team
> manager though) and he said that driver Oriol Servia had " gotten a hold
of
> some good simulation stuff, and has practiced on his computer at home" the
> Montreal track and was "completely comfortable with the car and track -
the
> very first time we rolled it off the truck yesterday."  Wow......I would
> guess that meant he used F1-2002 (or 2001) for this?

> Did anyone else hear this?

> TP



> > Is the track layout the exact same as when F1 runs there?  Curious to
see
> > lap time differences.

> > --

> > Tim Doyle
> > TDRacin? Online
> > VRW Team Owner
> > www.VirtualRacingWorld.com

David Powel

CART @ Montreal

by David Powel » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:25:36

Its only really the last few years when anything worth playing by a
professional has been available....GP2 was borderline as to teaching you
anything useful, or good for anything bar learning the direction of corners.
Now titles can finally offer levels of realism that means real world
techniques or style can be used by those that know, and learn by those that
dont.

Surely with time this will develop further.....

Making a sim from a car nice idea, seen some mockups at hyperstim in holland
(full scale BMW Williams) I must say I'd just buy a hyper as it means I dont
have race in the garage each night :)! or dismantle the thing to take it
about....


> Yeah, David......that's been known and talked about in the sim world for
> some time.  But, in real-world racing.....those "stories" have been played
> down or discounted by the TV networks and team owners and crew chiefs.
> However, its becoming more and more openly talked about.  That's what I
was
> "commenting" about.....you don't usually hear that sort of thing on
> TV...especially so "casually stated" as it was by Pat Patrick.

> Two weeks ago, we got a call from Tyler Radavich at World Motors Sports,
Inc
> in Southern CA.  Their driver, Alex Figge wants us to build a simulator
for
> him to train on over this winter, using one of their wrecked Toyota
Atlantic
> tubs.  There was a time when this call would have floored me.  Now, its
> becoming somewhat routine....although I still get e***d about them when
> they happen.  How did Tyler hear about us?  He told me that a Sparco rep
had
> told him about seeing Jeff Gordon and Robby Gordon running in our
simulators
> at Sears Point two years ago!  Wow....word of mouth is very powerful
stuff!

> TP



> > Its nothing new....jacques villeneuve used GP2 to learn the GP tracks
> prior
> > to his arrival in F1.

> > I have of quite alot them do it, I heard Massa had learnt every F1 track
> > with F1 "sims" you can buy in the shops.....



> > > I'm watching the qualifying session on Speed Channel at the moment.
> They
> > > just interviewed Pat Patrick (I think it was him, could have been
their
> > team
> > > manager though) and he said that driver Oriol Servia had " gotten a
hold
> > of
> > > some good simulation stuff, and has practiced on his computer at home"
> the
> > > Montreal track and was "completely comfortable with the car and
track -
> > the
> > > very first time we rolled it off the truck yesterday."  Wow......I
would
> > > guess that meant he used F1-2002 (or 2001) for this?

> > > Did anyone else hear this?

> > > TP



> > > > Is the track layout the exact same as when F1 runs there?  Curious
to
> > see
> > > > lap time differences.

> > > > --

> > > > Tim Doyle
> > > > TDRacin? Online
> > > > VRW Team Owner
> > > > www.VirtualRacingWorld.com

David Powel

CART @ Montreal

by David Powel » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:36:25

But youd really expect that at "national" level huh....

Like montoya, button, rakkionen, massa all out qualling more experienced
teamates in there first year, adding R Schu and N Heidfeld are no second
raters, isn't about 10-15laps to find the very limit at the level expected
from an F1 driver, unless you pay to drive that is :)

I suppose slow learners should have been weeded out before top level
competition as this would be a failing that would hinder there ascent
through the ranks. At least thats the case in the cut and shut nature in
which motorsports here are run, very few second chances unless your wallet
can help you.

There are some tracks new guys stuggle with in F1, but these are generally
heavily curbed tracks, which require a very specific ride over. Sometimes
takes em two visits (years) to find the sweet spot schumachers been wacking
over for the last 10years....


> They just "checkered" the qual session.......Servia is 6th!
Yikes....never
> been there before and trained on his sim at home!  Wow!

> TP



> > I'm watching the qualifying session on Speed Channel at the moment.
They
> > just interviewed Pat Patrick (I think it was him, could have been their
> team
> > manager though) and he said that driver Oriol Servia had " gotten a hold
> of
> > some good simulation stuff, and has practiced on his computer at home"
the
> > Montreal track and was "completely comfortable with the car and track -
> the
> > very first time we rolled it off the truck yesterday."  Wow......I would
> > guess that meant he used F1-2002 (or 2001) for this?

> > Did anyone else hear this?

> > TP



> > > Is the track layout the exact same as when F1 runs there?  Curious to
> see
> > > lap time differences.

> > > --

> > > Tim Doyle
> > > TDRacin? Online
> > > VRW Team Owner
> > > www.VirtualRacingWorld.com

Tom Pabs

CART @ Montreal

by Tom Pabs » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:48:49

I totally agree with you.  Especially the stuff about "your wallet" helping
you.....SOMETIMES, but not always.  Been there, done that - too.

TP



> But youd really expect that at "national" level huh....

> Like montoya, button, rakkionen, massa all out qualling more experienced
> teamates in there first year, adding R Schu and N Heidfeld are no second
> raters, isn't about 10-15laps to find the very limit at the level expected
> from an F1 driver, unless you pay to drive that is :)

> I suppose slow learners should have been weeded out before top level
> competition as this would be a failing that would hinder there ascent
> through the ranks. At least thats the case in the cut and shut nature in
> which motorsports here are run, very few second chances unless your wallet
> can help you.

> There are some tracks new guys stuggle with in F1, but these are generally
> heavily curbed tracks, which require a very specific ride over. Sometimes
> takes em two visits (years) to find the sweet spot schumachers been
wacking
> over for the last 10years....



> > They just "checkered" the qual session.......Servia is 6th!
> Yikes....never
> > been there before and trained on his sim at home!  Wow!

> > TP



> > > I'm watching the qualifying session on Speed Channel at the moment.
> They
> > > just interviewed Pat Patrick (I think it was him, could have been
their
> > team
> > > manager though) and he said that driver Oriol Servia had " gotten a
hold
> > of
> > > some good simulation stuff, and has practiced on his computer at home"
> the
> > > Montreal track and was "completely comfortable with the car and
track -
> > the
> > > very first time we rolled it off the truck yesterday."  Wow......I
would
> > > guess that meant he used F1-2002 (or 2001) for this?

> > > Did anyone else hear this?

> > > TP



> > > > Is the track layout the exact same as when F1 runs there?  Curious
to
> > see
> > > > lap time differences.

> > > > --

> > > > Tim Doyle
> > > > TDRacin? Online
> > > > VRW Team Owner
> > > > www.VirtualRacingWorld.com

Mitch_

CART @ Montreal

by Mitch_ » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:53:54

Back in the mid 90's Bobby Rahal came down to HP for a Q&A session (HP had
just became a sponsor).  I asked him about using sims for practice/learning
and he basically laughed in my face.  Bear in mind the current technology in
94 wasn't very good but even so he seemed to dismiss the whole idea
completely.

Mitch


> Yeah, David......that's been known and talked about in the sim world for
> some time.  But, in real-world racing.....those "stories" have been played
> down or discounted by the TV networks and team owners and crew chiefs.
> However, its becoming more and more openly talked about.  That's what I
was
> "commenting" about.....you don't usually hear that sort of thing on
> TV...especially so "casually stated" as it was by Pat Patrick.

> Two weeks ago, we got a call from Tyler Radavich at World Motors Sports,
Inc
> in Southern CA.  Their driver, Alex Figge wants us to build a simulator
for
> him to train on over this winter, using one of their wrecked Toyota
Atlantic
> tubs.  There was a time when this call would have floored me.  Now, its
> becoming somewhat routine....although I still get e***d about them when
> they happen.  How did Tyler hear about us?  He told me that a Sparco rep
had
> told him about seeing Jeff Gordon and Robby Gordon running in our
simulators
> at Sears Point two years ago!  Wow....word of mouth is very powerful
stuff!

> TP



> > Its nothing new....jacques villeneuve used GP2 to learn the GP tracks
> prior
> > to his arrival in F1.

> > I have of quite alot them do it, I heard Massa had learnt every F1 track
> > with F1 "sims" you can buy in the shops.....



> > > I'm watching the qualifying session on Speed Channel at the moment.
> They
> > > just interviewed Pat Patrick (I think it was him, could have been
their
> > team
> > > manager though) and he said that driver Oriol Servia had " gotten a
hold
> > of
> > > some good simulation stuff, and has practiced on his computer at home"
> the
> > > Montreal track and was "completely comfortable with the car and
track -
> > the
> > > very first time we rolled it off the truck yesterday."  Wow......I
would
> > > guess that meant he used F1-2002 (or 2001) for this?

> > > Did anyone else hear this?

> > > TP



> > > > Is the track layout the exact same as when F1 runs there?  Curious
to
> > see
> > > > lap time differences.

> > > > --

> > > > Tim Doyle
> > > > TDRacin? Online
> > > > VRW Team Owner
> > > > www.VirtualRacingWorld.com

David G Fishe

CART @ Montreal

by David G Fishe » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 05:15:55



JPM wasn't even close to RS in last year in qualifying. RS outqualified him
in 11 out of 17 races, usually by a half second or more. When JPM
outqualifed him, it was by a hair.

Needed a better sim.

This year it's 7-6 in favor of JPM, although RS outqualifies JPM by more on
average, has a faster average qualifying time, and a faster average race lap
time.

David G Fisher

David Powel

CART @ Montreal

by David Powel » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 06:00:28

I didnt say he had the upper hand though did I, simply saying he managed to
outqual him which is true, but Montoya needs to, quote "realise a GP weekend
is more than a banzai lap on Saturday".

The guy is still somewhat of a mystery to me, Im really getting the feeling
hes not as good as he's made out to be, anyone watching any of this years GP
races will remembering him cracking, and falling of the road, or coming
together with 90% of the people hes raced wheel to with, the last race being
a perfect example of him losin his head, then losing the track, then loosing
most the aero package on the car. Brazil/Nurburgring/Hungary all results
lost due to basically letting his will take control of his mind.

The guy has the speed, but thesedays in F1 more than ever with software
systems and huge ammounts of telemetry and technically advanced nature of
the whole thing, more like NASA than a motorracing series, you also need a
brain, I sadly feel the poor guy is rather lacking in the later. He'd have
made a class act when balls where the main requirement to going fast though,
like the 60's, 70's and 80's but today being highly intelligent and getting
the most from the car is more important than your ability to withstand fear.

Maybe this reflects more on his success in Cart, less technology etc, more
get in and drive.

Hes also very very up and down, and has bad days alot of the time compared
to ralf, if Montoya were truely the great star of the future, he wouldnt
crack under pressure would have learnt after two races the way to hold
someone behind in F1 is simply drive 100% normally,and after 4-5years of
competition in two of the highest series on earth, also he wouldnt have bad
days. Youd never see Schumacher having a day bad as bad as Montoyas, even in
the late 90's when he wasnt in the best machinery an awful day seemed to be
3rd.

Micheals second "full" season was a WDC championship, albeit in nearly the
best machinery in the field, but williams was clearly faster with the less
talented Damon Hill, which offers the conclusion that the Benetton was no
Williams. Even in a second year the signs were there. Signs I don't see with
Montoya, I do on occasion, like with Hakkinen the genius is there, just can
he use it all the time like someone called Michael.

I await the next 2-3years before I feel I could make a final sumup of
Montoya.

Rakkionen on the other hand is proving himself greatly this year, just
unluckly all those BMW enduced DNF's.





> > But youd really expect that at "national" level huh....

> > Like montoya, button, rakkionen, massa all out qualling more experienced
> > teamates in there first year, adding R Schu and N Heidfeld are no second
> > raters, isn't about 10-15laps to find the very limit at the level
expected
> > from an F1 driver, unless you pay to drive that is :)

> JPM wasn't even close to RS in last year in qualifying. RS outqualified
him
> in 11 out of 17 races, usually by a half second or more. When JPM
> outqualifed him, it was by a hair.

> Needed a better sim.

> This year it's 7-6 in favor of JPM, although RS outqualifies JPM by more
on
> average, has a faster average qualifying time, and a faster average race
lap
> time.

> David G Fisher

David Powel

CART @ Montreal

by David Powel » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 06:18:14

Also a number of occasions it was alot more than a hair :) I seem to
remember monaco Montoya pole and ralf in 5th? I cant be bothered looking at
the results, but I do seem to remember Montoya being on Pole and Ralf
usually on the next row after Micheal, which is more than a hair....

Granted though when monty has a bad one, he does indeed, last race he was
1sec behind. But also seems when Ralf has a bad one, Monty lets him have it.

Montoya has usually throw the race away by pitstop 1 anyway after a pole and
usually destroyed his car or taken someone with him (DC Nurb) so it all
levels out anyway :) Thats talking even after you think carefully about how
much effect the tyre situation has on the williams race performances.





> > But youd really expect that at "national" level huh....

> > Like montoya, button, rakkionen, massa all out qualling more experienced
> > teamates in there first year, adding R Schu and N Heidfeld are no second
> > raters, isn't about 10-15laps to find the very limit at the level
expected
> > from an F1 driver, unless you pay to drive that is :)

> JPM wasn't even close to RS in last year in qualifying. RS outqualified
him
> in 11 out of 17 races, usually by a half second or more. When JPM
> outqualifed him, it was by a hair.

> Needed a better sim.

> This year it's 7-6 in favor of JPM, although RS outqualifies JPM by more
on
> average, has a faster average qualifying time, and a faster average race
lap
> time.

> David G Fisher

adsale

CART @ Montreal

by adsale » Sun, 25 Aug 2002 07:13:31




> > But youd really expect that at "national" level huh....

> > Like montoya, button, rakkionen, massa all out qualling more experienced
> > teamates in there first year, adding R Schu and N Heidfeld are no second
> > raters, isn't about 10-15laps to find the very limit at the level expected
> > from an F1 driver, unless you pay to drive that is :)

> JPM wasn't even close to RS in last year in qualifying. RS outqualified him
> in 11 out of 17 races, usually by a half second or more. When JPM
> outqualifed him, it was by a hair.

> Needed a better sim.

> This year it's 7-6 in favor of JPM, although RS outqualifies JPM by more on
> average, has a faster average qualifying time, and a faster average race lap
> time.

Just curious, how many times has Ralf outqualified Michael and put his
car on the pole this year ? :-)

Ralf may be the "smarter" driver of the two, for now, but I know at
least one important person who believes JPM to be "an outstanding
talent"

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--


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