rec.autos.simulators

by **David G Fishe** » Tue, 23 Mar 1999 04:00:00

I've seen video of the cars from then. They held a line nicely and don't
slide anywhere near as much as they do in the game. They looked much more
stable even when racing in the rain. The AI in GPL looks realistic, but not
anyone human driver that I've seen. This was all mentioned months ago
actually.

I'm going to make a bet with myself as to which very familiar name disagrees
with me first.

David G Fisher

>After seeing and hearing this I realise that GPL is much more accurate than
>I gave it credit for and it is, indeed, my lack of talent that is the
>problem!!
> *** !!!!!

> Cheers...
> Phillip..
> (back to the 3:00 a.m. practise sessions!)

by **Phillip Arche** » Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:00:00

Forgive me brethren, as I almost left the fold ! Let me explain:

I have had GPL since the demo was first released, and the full game since
the week it came out and have spent COUNTLESS hours driving round and round
(and round..... etc.) first Watkins and then Monza etc. Unfortunately my
times seemed to have plateaued at low 1:08's for the Glen, low 1:31's for
Monza etc, and weren't improving so I left it alone for a while and did less
important things like feeding the kids and putting a roof on the house etc.
I then figured maybe I could improve with better hardware, so I built
another P.C. just for GPL. (PII 450, 128Mb PC100, SLI V2s etc.) Not much
better. Maybe it's my modified T2 that's holding me back ? Spent quite some
time in my friend's Hyperstimulator, without much difference. Damn ! No
other excuses - I'm just not cut out for this racing lark.
But wait ! maybe it's the fact that the game isn't really realistic -
surely these thoroughbreds can't have handled this unpredictably ? Yes!
that's it ! the sim isn't a true representation of the cars of this era, so
therefore I'll delete it from my drive and justify my lack of talent this
way!
But just as I was about to follow this path to damnation, a saviour in
the form of a short in-car video of Jackie Stewart driving the March-Ford (I
think) at Silverstone in 1969-70. Well, the car was squirming, fighting,
kicking and sliding all over the shop, the wee Scott's hands were never
still and he was wrestling with the wheel all the way through each corner.
During the clip there was a voice-over by Jackie saying Politically-
Incorrect things such as: the cars were like a woman, that they needed to be
treated firmly to get the right response, and even if you treated them well,
they were likely to turn *** when you least expected it!
After seeing and hearing this I realise that GPL is much more accurate than
I gave it credit for and it is, indeed, my lack of talent that is the
problem!!
*** !!!!!

Cheers...
Phillip..
(back to the 3:00 a.m. practise sessions!)

by **DPHI** » Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:00:00

Do not dispair brother...there are a bunch of us in the same boat <g>...

-don

by **Ben Colema** » Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:00:00

I disagree!.....did ya pick it?!

Ben

>I've seen video of the cars from then. They held a line nicely and don't
>slide anywhere near as much as they do in the game. They looked much more
>stable even when racing in the rain. The AI in GPL looks realistic, but not
>anyone human driver that I've seen. This was all mentioned months ago
>actually.

>I'm going to make a bet with myself as to which very familiar name
disagrees
>with me first.

>David G Fisher

>>After seeing and hearing this I realise that GPL is much more accurate
than
>>I gave it credit for and it is, indeed, my lack of talent that is the
>>problem!!
>> *** !!!!!

>> Cheers...
>> Phillip..
>> (back to the 3:00 a.m. practise sessions!)

by **SteveBla** » Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:00:00

the wee Scott's hands were never still and he was wrestling with the wheel all
the way through each corner. During the clip there was a voice-over by Jackie
saying Politically-Incorrect things such as: the cars were like a woman, that
they needed to be treated firmly to get the right response, and even if you
treated them well, they were likely to turn *** when you least expected
it!<<

Sounds like my evening at the NTT Kyalami race. Especially the unexpected
*** part! Is there a limit to how many apexes a corner can have?

Steve B.

remove "edy" from address for email

by **McKafr** » Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:00:00

at zandvoort ?

McKafre De La Rosa

>>The AI in GPL looks realistic, but not
>>anyone human driver that I've seen. This was all mentioned months ago
>>actually.

>Last Wednesday night on VROC, I watch (I sat out that race) one of the fast
>drivers race a Honda/Mur during a 6 lap race. I watch from different
camera
>angles including from the***pit. The guy braked at the same points
>every lap, followed the groove perfectly etc.. His lap times were like
>29.49, 29.29, 29.05 and so on. At least I know that great control of
>the car is possible, just not by me yet.

by **Harjan Bran** » Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:00:00

I have to agree up onto a certain degree, many of the human drivers seem to
be going sideways all over the track. Side-flipping the car whether it's a
go-kart. These cars aren't suppose to be driven like that. You have to drive
them smooth, that doesn't mean the car isn't sliding. You're just on the
limit, with the front end and back end loosing grip almost all the time. If
you control the drifts it's pretty easy to drive perfect lines. Most people
have problems driving consistent lines, I think they don't use markers
enough. Some corners need markers (personally I only use them for braking
and almost never for turning in(in real life and in simulator racing). In
real life I use a marker for the clipping point as well, but in GPL I have
to admit that I usually just use the darkened area. If you look at my
replay I'm right on the line, and putting in consistent lap times.
I think more drivers should work on consistency, since race wins come from
consistency and not from hotlapping.
For people trying to become a better racing driver I suggest the following,
joing a league and see what other drivers are doing (offline) on the
laptime. Now just go and practise, keep driving laps with the average lap
time they drive on mind. Don't go out looking at the hotlap times, these
guys are great drivers as well as very good capable of setting up a car. By
comparing your times to more average drivers, you'll get far more
satisfaction. Just keep on driving, make markers for difficult entries. And
never try to overdrive to soon. We all know where the last seconds come
from, it's from trailbraking. But don't even think about trailbraking if
you're not already putting in good times. It will only slowen your
progression. So just keep on practising with good (not superb) as target
times. Also always use the Lotus when practising, many will not agree on
this, but it's just the most easy car to drive quickly. You don't have use
every trick in the book to achieve good lap times. Driving traditional lines
not using trail braking will bring you good times in the Lotus, while in for
example the Coventry you have to drive your balls off to achieve a moderate
time. Going from the Coventry to the Lotus will just leave you frustrated as
you tend to overdrive every corner that comes along.

by **John Walla** » Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:00:00

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:37:57 -0500, "David G Fisher"

>I've seen video of the cars from then. They held a line nicely and don't
>slide anywhere near as much as they do in the game. They looked much more
>stable even when racing in the rain. The AI in GPL looks realistic, but not
>anyone human driver that I've seen. This was all mentioned months ago
>actually.

>I'm going to make a bet with myself as to which very familiar name disagrees
>with me first.

Wrong actually - for my part I intend only to say "please don't start
this again". We've all been over this fifty squillion times, not only
mentioned months ago but again and again ad infinitum. You don't like
it, okay, but jeez at least accept that others do and move on.

Cheers!
John

by **schwab** » Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:00:00

Phil... hehe, great story. Trust me though, you CAN do it. Watch a
replay of a "fast" guys hotlap at say, the Glen, and compare his corner
speeds to yours. Then try to match them. Keep trying and tweaking the
setups until you get relatively close.... you'll get there!!

-_Dave

> Forgive me brethren, as I almost left the fold ! Let me explain:

> I have had GPL since the demo was first released, and the full game since
> the week it came out and have spent COUNTLESS hours driving round and round
> (and round..... etc.) first Watkins and then Monza etc. Unfortunately my
> times seemed to have plateaued at low 1:08's for the Glen, low 1:31's for
> Monza etc, and weren't improving so I left it alone for a while and did less
> important things like feeding the kids and putting a roof on the house etc.
> I then figured maybe I could improve with better hardware, so I built
> another P.C. just for GPL. (PII 450, 128Mb PC100, SLI V2s etc.) Not much
> better. Maybe it's my modified T2 that's holding me back ? Spent quite some
> time in my friend's Hyperstimulator, without much difference. Damn ! No
> other excuses - I'm just not cut out for this racing lark.
> But wait ! maybe it's the fact that the game isn't really realistic -
> surely these thoroughbreds can't have handled this unpredictably ? Yes!
> that's it ! the sim isn't a true representation of the cars of this era, so
> therefore I'll delete it from my drive and justify my lack of talent this
> way!
> But just as I was about to follow this path to damnation, a saviour in
> the form of a short in-car video of Jackie Stewart driving the March-Ford (I
> think) at Silverstone in 1969-70. Well, the car was squirming, fighting,
> kicking and sliding all over the shop, the wee Scott's hands were never
> still and he was wrestling with the wheel all the way through each corner.
> During the clip there was a voice-over by Jackie saying Politically-
> Incorrect things such as: the cars were like a woman, that they needed to be
> treated firmly to get the right response, and even if you treated them well,
> they were likely to turn *** when you least expected it!
> After seeing and hearing this I realise that GPL is much more accurate than
> I gave it credit for and it is, indeed, my lack of talent that is the
> problem!!
> *** !!!!!

> Cheers...
> Phillip..
> (back to the 3:00 a.m. practise sessions!)

--
Dave Schwabe
The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~schwabe

by **schwab** » Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:00:00

Harjan...

These old cars with tall bias-ply tires *were* driven a bit raggedly and
sideways... revisit some old racing videos and you will see that these
cars *did* drift around most corners with the back end*** out
slightly...

-_Dave

> I have to agree up onto a certain degree, many of the human drivers seem to
> be going sideways all over the track. Side-flipping the car whether it's a
> go-kart. These cars aren't suppose to be driven like that. You have to drive
> them smooth, that doesn't mean the car isn't sliding. You're just on the
> limit, with the front end and back end loosing grip almost all the time. If
> you control the drifts it's pretty easy to drive perfect lines. Most people
> have problems driving consistent lines, I think they don't use markers
> enough. Some corners need markers (personally I only use them for braking
> and almost never for turning in(in real life and in simulator racing). In
> real life I use a marker for the clipping point as well, but in GPL I have
> to admit that I usually just use the darkened area. If you look at my
> replay I'm right on the line, and putting in consistent lap times.
> I think more drivers should work on consistency, since race wins come from
> consistency and not from hotlapping.
> For people trying to become a better racing driver I suggest the following,
> joing a league and see what other drivers are doing (offline) on the
> laptime. Now just go and practise, keep driving laps with the average lap
> time they drive on mind. Don't go out looking at the hotlap times, these
> guys are great drivers as well as very good capable of setting up a car. By
> comparing your times to more average drivers, you'll get far more
> satisfaction. Just keep on driving, make markers for difficult entries. And
> never try to overdrive to soon. We all know where the last seconds come
> from, it's from trailbraking. But don't even think about trailbraking if
> you're not already putting in good times. It will only slowen your
> progression. So just keep on practising with good (not superb) as target
> times. Also always use the Lotus when practising, many will not agree on
> this, but it's just the most easy car to drive quickly. You don't have use
> every trick in the book to achieve good lap times. Driving traditional lines
> not using trail braking will bring you good times in the Lotus, while in for
> example the Coventry you have to drive your balls off to achieve a moderate
> time. Going from the Coventry to the Lotus will just leave you frustrated as
> you tend to overdrive every corner that comes along.

> >>>Well, the car was squirming, fighting, kicking and sliding all over the
> shop,
> >the wee Scott's hands were never still and he was wrestling with the wheel
> all
> >the way through each corner. During the clip there was a voice-over by
> Jackie
> >saying Politically-Incorrect things such as: the cars were like a woman,
> that
> >they needed to be treated firmly to get the right response, and even if you
> >treated them well, they were likely to turn *** when you least expected
> >it!<<

> >Sounds like my evening at the NTT Kyalami race. Especially the unexpected
> >*** part! Is there a limit to how many apexes a corner can have?

> >Steve B.

> >remove "edy" from address for email

--
Dave Schwabe
The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~schwabe

by **Maps** » Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:00:00

On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:47:47 +0100, "McKafre"

>at zandvoort ?

Monza was my guess...

<...>

by **David G Fishe** » Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:00:00

I'm not "starting" anything. I'm responding to a post on r.a.s.

Sorry, I forgot that criticizing GPL is a no-no. Only warm and fuzzy
allowed.

I've seen the old video and it does not resemble what I see from human
drivers. Seems like a big red flag to me but it's fine if some hard core GPL
drivers with 8,000,000 hours in the sim want to ignore it. If I had that
much time in the sim, I'd hate any criticism of it too. I'd probably
overreact and assume someone is saying I've been wasting my time.

David G Fisher

>Wrong actually - for my part I intend only to say "please don't start
>this again". We've all been over this fifty squillion times, not only
>mentioned months ago but again and again ad infinitum. You don't like
>it, okay, but jeez at least accept that others do and move on.

>Cheers!
>John

by **David G Fishe** » Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:00:00

>On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:51:16 -0500, "David G Fisher"

>>I'm not "starting" anything. I'm responding to a post on r.a.s.

>Which was from someone who enjoyed GPL and thought it very realistic.
>You managed to twist around to the same tired old topic.

No John. I simply responded to a post on r.a.s. He referred to old video of
F1 races. I gave my opinion of the same video. That's an example of the way
a newsgroup works. I seriously doubt the person who made the original post
recognizes my name from the past or any of my opinions. It may be familiar
to you, but not to most who post here.

Paranoia? Hmmm. Predictability is a better word. I can can easily predict
who will respond to my posts and what they will say.

Examples:

Ymenard will tell me UbiSoft sucks and Papyrus is great.

Pat Dotson will say MS sucks (for some reason he thinks that bothers me).

John Wallace will scold me because I occasionally post that GPL isn't
perfect. Maybe you do that to invite piling on? Why don't you ever mention
that I've said (100 times) it's an excellent sim? I've asked the GPL fan
club many times why they ignore that fact but they never answer. Convenient.

If someone doesn't like my posts, please put me on your kill file.

Funny. A check of deja news shows that I RARELY EVER post ANYTHING about
GPL, nor do I bash sims or their developers. I probably go too far the
opposite way. My posts on r.a.s. are just a weeeeeeeeeeee fraction
especially when compared to members of the Papyrus cult and their daily
bashing of any other sim which dares to sit on the same shelf with GPL.

MGPRS2 moans? I think it's a fantastic sim. You and ymenard are the ones who
constantly moan about it.

You call that belittling a point of view? I call it a logical and well known
observation of typical human behavior.

You know what I'm bored of and wish would CHANGE on r.a.s.?

The GPL (Papyrus) fan club (really just the same 10 guys who have been
whining at me for a year and a half) who overreact to any post even slightly
negative about GPL or Papyrus. The same crybabies then eagerly rip, or post
links to reviews ripping, other titles.

Boring.

David G Fisher

by **David Kar** » Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:00:00

I would imagine there's room for both of you to be correct: I know the
Stewart footage to which Phillip alluded (it's in the "Formula 1 Saga" set
put out by White Star--though in truth it seems to be 1971 or so), and
indeed JS is sawing the wheel all over the place and it don't at all look
surgically precise. I imagine there's always been different styles of
driving . . .

But Davie, I don't get your constant (and I mean CONSTANT) desire to put GPL
down at all.
I mean--hell, it's just a game, a damned game (okay! okay! a sim! a sim!),
but your long-expressed animous towards it seems AT LEAST as obsessive as
the religiousity towards it you attribute towards others.

Hmm?

So GPL is their game, and anti-GPL is yours?

love,
DK

>I've seen video of the cars from then. They held a line nicely and don't
>slide anywhere near as much as they do in the game. They looked much more
>stable even when racing in the rain. The AI in GPL looks realistic, but not
>anyone human driver that I've seen. This was all mentioned months ago
>actually.

>I'm going to make a bet with myself as to which very familiar name
disagrees
>with me first.

>David G Fisher

>>After seeing and hearing this I realise that GPL is much more accurate
than
>>I gave it credit for and it is, indeed, my lack of talent that is the
>>problem!!
>> *** !!!!!

>> Cheers...
>> Phillip..
>> (back to the 3:00 a.m. practise sessions!)

by **Andrew MacPhers** » Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:00:00

Give the guy a break John. Counselling's expensive, typing's cheap
(unless you hire Monica to do it).

Andrew "I wasn't 1st :-p" McP

rec.autos.simulators

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