rec.autos.simulators

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

Bruce Mill

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

by Bruce Mill » Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:34:31

Suggestions/input/ideas wanted:  As a personal project I want to
design a set of pedals that will give a high and fine degree of
control (yeah... buy some high-end pedals -- but I like to build
stuff, ok?).  On examination of the  pedal internals I have personally
seen (not many) it seems to me that depressing the brake/throttle only
results in the pot turning a small percentage of its potential, a
basic 1:1 movement.  I am thinking that a simple gear reduction box
may translate a pedal throw of a few inches into a pot revolution
somewhere between 180 and 270 degrees.  I am not an engineer, but it
seems to me that this would result in a finer degree of control,
especially throttle control.  In fact, if I recall correctly, wasnt
the old T2 pedal unit based on this design?  Do any of the current
mass market and/or high-end pedals use a similar design? Anyway, any
input from this group would be useful.
Schoone

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

by Schoone » Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:03:38

From our testing on our pedal design the pot movement isn't really that
critical.  The Momo pedals for example only move the pot about 15 degrees
and yet it is as sensitive as ones moving 3-4 times that.
In our design and a few others that are similar the movement is anywhere
from 45-1120 degrees.
I don't think you will gain anything with more pot travel.


Paul Harringto

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

by Paul Harringto » Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:05:58

The BRD Pro pedals use this method, and from my experience you gain more
precision and less jitter. Whether this translates into more effective pedal
control is perhaps open to debate. When BRD bring out their driver to allow
the pedal response to be tuned this extra precision may be well worth
having.

An additional advantage tho is that using a larger range of movement in the
pot significantly increases its lifetime (according to BRD) whch makes a lot
of sense to me.

Paul


> From our testing on our pedal design the pot movement isn't really that
> critical.  The Momo pedals for example only move the pot about 15 degrees
> and yet it is as sensitive as ones moving 3-4 times that.
> In our design and a few others that are similar the movement is anywhere
> from 45-1120 degrees.
> I don't think you will gain anything with more pot travel.



> > Suggestions/input/ideas wanted:  As a personal project I want to
> > design a set of pedals that will give a high and fine degree of
> > control (yeah... buy some high-end pedals -- but I like to build
> > stuff, ok?).  On examination of the  pedal internals I have personally
> > seen (not many) it seems to me that depressing the brake/throttle only
> > results in the pot turning a small percentage of its potential, a
> > basic 1:1 movement.  I am thinking that a simple gear reduction box
> > may translate a pedal throw of a few inches into a pot revolution
> > somewhere between 180 and 270 degrees.  I am not an engineer, but it
> > seems to me that this would result in a finer degree of control,
> > especially throttle control.  In fact, if I recall correctly, wasnt
> > the old T2 pedal unit based on this design?  Do any of the current
> > mass market and/or high-end pedals use a similar design? Anyway, any
> > input from this group would be useful.

Schoone

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

by Schoone » Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:10:15

Yes, your wearing over a larger area of the pot so it should wear more
evenly and last a bit longer.


> The BRD Pro pedals use this method, and from my experience you gain more
> precision and less jitter. Whether this translates into more effective
pedal
> control is perhaps open to debate. When BRD bring out their driver to
allow
> the pedal response to be tuned this extra precision may be well worth
> having.

> An additional advantage tho is that using a larger range of movement in
the
> pot significantly increases its lifetime (according to BRD) whch makes a
lot
> of sense to me.

> Paul



> > From our testing on our pedal design the pot movement isn't really that
> > critical.  The Momo pedals for example only move the pot about 15
degrees
> > and yet it is as sensitive as ones moving 3-4 times that.
> > In our design and a few others that are similar the movement is anywhere
> > from 45-1120 degrees.
> > I don't think you will gain anything with more pot travel.



> > > Suggestions/input/ideas wanted:  As a personal project I want to
> > > design a set of pedals that will give a high and fine degree of
> > > control (yeah... buy some high-end pedals -- but I like to build
> > > stuff, ok?).  On examination of the  pedal internals I have personally
> > > seen (not many) it seems to me that depressing the brake/throttle only
> > > results in the pot turning a small percentage of its potential, a
> > > basic 1:1 movement.  I am thinking that a simple gear reduction box
> > > may translate a pedal throw of a few inches into a pot revolution
> > > somewhere between 180 and 270 degrees.  I am not an engineer, but it
> > > seems to me that this would result in a finer degree of control,
> > > especially throttle control.  In fact, if I recall correctly, wasnt
> > > the old T2 pedal unit based on this design?  Do any of the current
> > > mass market and/or high-end pedals use a similar design? Anyway, any
> > > input from this group would be useful.

Jonny Hodgso

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

by Jonny Hodgso » Thu, 12 Sep 2002 02:09:48


> basic 1:1 movement.  I am thinking that a simple gear reduction box
> may translate a pedal throw of a few inches into a pot revolution
> somewhere between 180 and 270 degrees.  I am not an engineer, but it
> seems to me that this would result in a finer degree of control,
> especially throttle control.  In fact, if I recall correctly, wasnt
> the old T2 pedal unit based on this design?  Do any of the current
> mass market and/or high-end pedals use a similar design? Anyway, any
> input from this group would be useful.

Interact V3 pedals use a rack (or possibly a small arc of a very
big gear ;-) on the pedals to drive a small gear on the pot
spindle.  Works nicely, although my original throttle pot still
wore out around my usual 'feathering point' in GPL!

Jonny

Jone Tytlandsvi

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

by Jone Tytlandsvi » Thu, 12 Sep 2002 03:37:45

The pots turn very few degrees, but they are not normal pots, and they
rotate near their full range.

If you wan't to build something high end, use a digital encoder of some
kind. If you have to build something that adapts to an existing wheel or to
a game port, connect it to a digital pot. If you place the digital pot near
the wheel/gameport, you will make it more imune to noise.
No more worn pots!

Jone.

Andreas Nystro

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

by Andreas Nystro » Thu, 12 Sep 2002 04:27:05

I would disassemble a hi-resolution mice (like those ***-mices) and use
the optical reader of those in the wheel. That should be pretty good ok
(atleast for no wornout pots :)


spar

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

by spar » Thu, 12 Sep 2002 06:43:11

Here are some pictures of some pedals I built. They use a rack and get close
to full pot potation. The pedals are actually a bit more refined now than
when I took the pictures but they may give you some ideas. Someday I will
get around to updating this site.

http://home.maine.rr.com/spark/ped_main.htm

Spark

Haqsa

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

by Haqsa » Thu, 12 Sep 2002 07:12:28

Gears could work, but if you are not careful to use very low lash gears
you will actually be adding some imprecision.  Gears don't really drive
at a constant ratio unless there is zero lash, it's more like start -
stop - catch up - start again with each tooth.  But with zero lash they
tend to bind up easily and not live very long.  A small cogged belt
would probably give you better results.  I have seen those used in
instrument control systems, so I believe they can be very precise.


Houndo

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

by Houndo » Thu, 12 Sep 2002 07:52:06

I found that I get about 150 degrees of rotation, very smooth.

I have built 4 complete sets of the controllers in the link below.
http://kbrl.com/controllers_kbr.htm

Jeff


Roger Squire

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

by Roger Squire » Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:41:54

I agree with the other posters about using digital over analog, but if
analog, then consider carefully the electrical component choice, namely the
range of resistance of the pot.  Some values can result in better precision.
There was some discussion of this in connection with the PDP4 card, try
doing some google searches or look on joystick websites.

rms

Bruce Mill

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

by Bruce Mill » Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:39:50

Spark, very nice.  I am wondering what the purpose of the cam under
your brake pedal, in front of the shock absorber is?  Did you put that
there to change the direction of movement so the shock could be placed
under the platform to save space, or is there another reason?  Also,
is the shock an auto part (hood/trunk shock) -- I was under the
impression that those hood shocks were too stiff to be used for this
application, but you are obviously using one.
spar

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

by spar » Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:16:09

The cam is there for 2 reasons. 1st - space and design considerations. My
pedals mount close to the front of my simulated***pit. Also I felt that it
would be a plus if I could mount everything on a single platform. 2nd - (and
maybe more important) the cam allows the shock to be adjustable by choosing
the pivot point and mounting points of the shock and pedal arm (I had a test
cam with lots of holes). These adjustments can result in a huge change in
how the shock feels. The initial inspiration for the cam came from F1/CART
front shocks.

At 1st I tried the shock from a Jetta trunk (which happened to be sitting in
my driveway) but this was way too stiff. I went to NAPA and they were kind
enough to bring out a box of trunk shocks and I bought the softest one.

I really like the hydraulic feel the shock adds (like a brake). Going back
to springs just doesn't feel right.

Spark


Ken MacKa

pedal design -- ideas for increasing resolution

by Ken MacKa » Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:11:20

If you using a gameport you can increase the resoloution by using a
larger value pot. For example if you use a 100K pot over half its
rotation you'd get say 0-50k. Stick a 400K pot in the same arrangement
and you get 0-200k. Or use a quarter of the 400K pot's rotation and get
0-100k.  The resolution of most pots are fairly good, so as long as the
mechanism for rotating the pot is fairly solid, without much play, then
the amount of pot rotation isn't that important as long as the
resistance range is reasonable.  You would probably "feel" more
resolution by making sure that the pedals have a reasonably good throw.

The biggest limitation is the analogue gamport. It basicly measures the
time to charge a capacitor.  Put more resistance across, lowering the
current,  and it takes longer for the capacitor to charge giving a
higher count. If you use a small resistance range then you get limited
number of counts and poorer resolution. Use to large a pot and it takes
too long to perform the measurement (charge the capacitor) giving lags
in controller input. Also higher resistance will result in lower current
passing through the cables making noise more noticeable (ie the
jitters).  So in the end, selecting the pot size (resistance range) is a
trade off between resolution and controller lag (jitters).  There are a
few things you can do to reduce the jitters (use the lower resistance
end of the pot, short cable runs, good shielding) but there is a limit.
If you check the output of most analogue controllers, you'd probably
find the resistance peaks at around 50k to 100k.  If you can use a
digital device, as other have suggested, that may be more what you are
looking for. Maybe try one of the gameport to USB converters.

There was a good description of the gameport and how digital gamecards
tried to overcome some of these limitation at
http://www.gplonline.com/tech-talk/hardware-tech.htm but the site
appears to be gone.

But look at it this way,  if you get stable counts of say around 0 to
300 for 3 inches of pedal travel then every 0.01 inch of pedal movement
will be detected. :-)

HTH
Ken


>Suggestions/input/ideas wanted:  As a personal project I want to
>design a set of pedals that will give a high and fine degree of
>control (yeah... buy some high-end pedals -- but I like to build
>stuff, ok?).  On examination of the  pedal internals I have personally
>seen (not many) it seems to me that depressing the brake/throttle only
>results in the pot turning a small percentage of its potential, a
>basic 1:1 movement.  I am thinking that a simple gear reduction box
>may translate a pedal throw of a few inches into a pot revolution
>somewhere between 180 and 270 degrees.  I am not an engineer, but it
>seems to me that this would result in a finer degree of control,
>especially throttle control.  In fact, if I recall correctly, wasnt
>the old T2 pedal unit based on this design?  Do any of the current
>mass market and/or high-end pedals use a similar design? Anyway, any
>input from this group would be useful.


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