rec.autos.simulators

This is a bit of a long post but please bear with me - from recent posts I
may not be the only one with this problem!

I've been using a battered and oft-repaired Thrustmaster T2 for as long as I
can remember. After the bungee snapped for the fit time I decided to get
used to driving with no friction or centering at all. No problem and lap
times didn't suffer. When the play in the column lately became so bad I need
the full with of the straight to get from one end to the other, I decided
perhaps a new wheel might be needed. I felt it had to have steel bearing and
the only one in my price range was the Momo FF. I've also become intrigued
with FF recently as many sim racers I respect (and fear) seem to value. So
..... 120 beer tokens later the red thing is sitting on my desk.

Now comes the problem! The FF felt ludicrous straight from the off. Any
resemblance between this and anything I'd ever driven before was purely
coincidental! 'No problem' I thought - a search on he web turned up the
Wingman site with some tips. They didn't work! A search of Usenet posts
resulted in the same disappointment. Except for some realistic thumps when
hitting the walls trying to avoid one of Remco's spins (i.e. every race),
the feedback seems to consist of strange and counter-intuitive pulls and
loosenings of the wheel combined with either a deadness or hunting around
centre. Particularly bizarre is the reaction to hands-off gradual
acceleration. Regardless of latency setting, this results in an increasingly
manic oscillation and eventual reversal of front and rear wheels.

I've become so disenchanted that I don't even like the feel of the inbuilt
resistance without effects. The upshot is that I've got FF enabled in GPL,
NR2002 and my private West RL beta but have all forces turned to zero in
each game. This results in.... you guessed it - a wheel which feels like a
T2 with a broken bungee!

Now either the entire ras community id barking mad (not an entirely
impossible hypothesis) or I am clueless as regards expectation, setup or
both (a more likely hypothesis). I would really appreciate a complete
idiot's guide to making this expensive T2 simulator provide helpful FF
effects. My preferred driving style in GPL is about average, i.e. I find
Alison's setups like a fridge on castors, I find Greger's like the same
fridge but hinged in several places and I find Roland's just about right.

I assume that if you made it this far you are either very bored with life or
may in fact be able to help. Any tips would be much appreciated. I want to
get this thing sorted before the BRD Race Frame and Speed 7 pedals arrive
(gloat mode off).

Regards

dave henrie

I went and tried to drive the Brabham (short wheelbase car... most unstable
one in GPL, IMO) up and down the main straight at Monza, using my MOMO FF
wheel hands-off. First couple of tries were a bit of a miss as shifting
gears (using the paddles) would unsettle the wheel, so I went to
autoshifting. Conclusion: if you accellerate smoothly and progressively it
will track straight with my settings. Jab at the throttle slightly when a
suface uneveness has an effect on the wheel and you will start an
oscillation. But like I said, if left alone and allowed to self-correct it
will track straight. I have a replay of this "feat" (easily the most
unimpressive thing I've ever done) if you don't believe me.

Without knowing your settings, the way you drive or your setups I can't
really tell what's wrong. What follows is some advise and the truth about FF
as I see it. YMMV.

You may have it set too strong. A force feedback wheel is like a stage
amplifier. It turns a fairly weak signal (couple of mA from a D/A converter)
into a force strong enough to make us think there's a car attached to the
wheel (more on that later). Like a stage amplifier, if you turn it up too
loud, the signal from the speaker may feed back into the guitar, or
microphone you're using and begin to oscillate at a very unpleasant
frequency.

You may have a tendency, like a lot of non-FF users in my experience, to
drive fairly "robotically" (no offence intended, just trying to describe
what I see). I.e. brake for turn, crank on lock, feed on power and release
lock, instead of going with the car, experiencing the grip conditions in the
turn and "feeling" your way through. Without FF this is no problem as the
car doesn't "fight back", but with FF this can lead to you subconciously
being "rigid" at the wheel at first, which lessens the dampening effect your
arms have on the course of the car.

Since without FF you don't experience pull under braking due to uneven front
tire (hot) presures or large camber splits, your setups may require a
rethink when using FF. Also, I've seen setups up for download on the web
featuring toe-out on the rear wheels, which also does nothing for straight
line stability. Perhaps you need a higher steering ratio as well due to the
increased "travel" of the MOMO vs the T2.

As for the FF experience: no, it doesn't fysically feel "exactly the same"
as a real car. Anyone who claims that is a liar, eventhough advancements are
still being made (N2k2, F1 2k2) and I hope Papyrus/ISI/West Brothers will
take it further. There are striking resemblances though and for the track
environment I was actually quite amazed when I made the comparison. I used
to think FF in GPL was exaggerated. Then I went and drove the Ring in my
real car. Crashing down on the suspension at Pflantzgarten<sp?> at 75mph I
had to really muscle the car into the turn. And my car features power
steering, BTW.

Anyhow, if it doesn't really feel real, why use it? -Simple, it doesn't have
to. All that is required is that it's "near enough" and consistent. A
certain feeling being relared to a certain behaviour is all it takes. After
a (amazingly) short learning period, the brain (amazing piece of kit as
well, that..) will translate automatically and make it believeble. In other
words, it will feel real in the GPL context. Don't get me wrong: non-FF is
faster, absolutely no doubt, but FF allows you to delegate part of keeping
track of the car's attitude to the "motor" part of the brain, away from the
visual/hearing part. Which is a real bonus in close quarters racing. Might
be my imagination, but it appears to me non-FF drivers run out of spare
mental capacity/situational awareness faster than FF users in a pressure
situation.

Anyhow, give the MOMO a shot. Adjust the settings; take a look at
Slottweak's setup procedure, e.g. (http://www.slottweak.com/gplintro.htm). I
don't agree with everything GTX has to say on the subject, but it might get
you into the ballpark (I recommend 0.03 as a latency setting for the MOMO,
BTW). Give yourself time to get used to it. It's a great tool, which, once
mastered, will improve your consistency and enjoyment, IMO.

Hope this helps,

Jan.
=---

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Shame you had nothing constructive to add though.

cya

I'll try his setups today. It may help if I work from the 'minimal effects'
end of things so it doesn't come as too much of a shock. Thanks again for
the help and cya Saturday at CocaCola.

Regards

I was feeling pissed of with my wheel and therefore a little mischievous ;-)
Having read just about all the posts on the West site I should know better
than pull people's chains like that but I couldn't resist it. Obviously, I
don't have such a beta nor does one exist. It is of course the trial demo
version I have.

Regards

I _do_ remember a certain Zandvoort race though.... <g>

Remco

You consistently have the most thoughtful, interesting, trenchant comments
on GPL of anybody posting on r.a.s.

--Steve <whisper off>

Only kidding though. There's very few I trust going 2 a*** in turns in
GPL but you're one of them :)

BTW, stop*** around the West web site and get back in that Brabham!
Could well be the next MoG season would be in WRL (dreaming perhaps).

cya

I think it's an overgeneralisation on his part. His method for arriving at
settings (starting hands-off from full lock etc..) works for me when
translated to using "accepted" settings, which is why I suggested the site
(and to not to have to reproduce that here).

However, a higher damping setting, except from tightening the wheel up, will
also make knocks from stationary objects (kerbs, bumps in grass, armco...)
more pronounced, in my experience. So there is a gray area for sure.

That's indeed the way to go, from my point of view.

You're welcome... I'm not comfortable about racing there at the moment, but
I will make an appearance in chat for sure.

Jan.
=---

I like your style.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...