rec.autos.simulators

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

Andrew MacPhers

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by Andrew MacPhers » Fri, 11 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Absolutely. But I must admit I'm a bit disappointed 1.1 won't add D3D
support. This isn't out of personal need, just because I want GPL to be as
accessible as possible to the "average" PC owner. Everyone I know locally
with a PC has a 3dfx card and GPL (mainly because I advised them to get
both!) But the lack of D3D support must be one of the factors which has
slowed GPL's widespread appeal.

Given that GPL's unlikely to be beaten for realism in the near future, I
still think D3D would be a valuable addition. But it's a lot of work, I'm
sure, and there's probably not the budget for it.

Andrew McP

Zonk

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by Zonk » Sat, 12 Jun 1999 04:00:00


>Path:
>> Their decisions were sound.

>Absolutely.

No way. a 2 year game path is completely typical, i'm afraid. Papy dropped the
ball, where many others did not.

Z.

Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Larr

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by Larr » Sat, 12 Jun 1999 04:00:00

I would be interested in a V3 PCI 3D only card, but not a combo AGP.

I want my TNTAGP and Voodoo in PCI, like I always have.  All the bases
are covered.

As soon as they offer a 3D only PCI card, I might buy one.  Well, there
is that non-competition thing now with 3dfx :(

-Larry


> I'm going to go and see if I can buy my Voodoo2 back from my friend.
> Going to keep my TNT2 and run the V2 in there as well......actually might be
> better with a PCI V3 2000 if the prices are only around $100.00 US.

Andrew MacPhers

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by Andrew MacPhers » Sat, 12 Jun 1999 04:00:00

For a start "others" could afford to use D3D even when it was rubbish
because their game engines <insert standard IMO disclaimer> are doing much
less work, leaving more CPU cycles for D3D.

More important from where I'm sitting is the fact that whatever their
faults, it was 3dfx which...

1) gave us the 1st really good 3d support, with a market leading product
for what, 2 years? Only Intel have a better record of ***.

2) "forced" Microsoft to get their D3D act together, baling out the
hardware developers whose products were struggling.

So I think Glide was the only serious hardware accelerated option when GPL
went into development. A D3D gamble would've paid off, but perfect
hindsight is a wonderful invention... I wish I'd thought of it years ago.

Andrew McP

Ken Bear

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by Ken Bear » Sun, 13 Jun 1999 04:00:00

No, it's the people who don't follow a very simple mantra are the ones who
"dropped the ball"

Buy ALL *** hardware to SUPPORT the games you RUN.  Extremely simple.  It
was true back in the "100% Sound Blaster Compatible" (NOT) soundcard era,
and is true today.  I've heard all this complaining about "Company X not
supporting my YZ Whizbang card" stuff for the last 10 years, and it is NOT
Company X's fault - it's the consumer who wants to believe hype about
hardware without paying attention to compatibility.  My Soundblaster may not
have done some of the stuff those other cards did, but I NEVER had to wait
for a patch for a game to work with it - much the same with my 3dfx cards
today.

IF for whatever reason a non-3dfx card is best for you and the majority of
your games, then you buy that KNOWING that GPL is one that WON'T support it,
and have to just DEAL WITH IT, instead of whining about Papy and them not
being omniscient about what hardware is going to be like in 2 years back
when they started.

Plus, the fact that GPL and many other games with OpenGL patches don't work
that well is that the card makers don't have good drivers for it, they only
are really concerned with Quake, etc. with those OpenGL drivers, if anything
else works on it than it's a plus.

--
Ken's Sig 3.0

"Who is the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan
Kenobi

Go #43 and #44!

volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com




>>Path:

>>> Their decisions were sound.

>>Absolutely.
>No way. a 2 year game path is completely typical, i'm afraid. Papy dropped
the
>ball, where many others did not.

>Z.

>Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Paul Malyn

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by Paul Malyn » Sun, 13 Jun 1999 04:00:00

My complaint about lack of support for OpenGL ( non 3DFX cards ),is directed
at Sierra not Papyrus.

It shits me that a company like Sierra release games that have different
hardware requirements.

Sierra has Half Life, full support for Open GL, GLide etc. and then there is
GPL rendition and 3dfx only

What ever happened to consistency.


> No, it's the people who don't follow a very simple mantra are the ones who
> "dropped the ball"

> Buy ALL *** hardware to SUPPORT the games you RUN.  Extremely simple.
It
> was true back in the "100% Sound Blaster Compatible" (NOT) soundcard era,
> and is true today.  I've heard all this complaining about "Company X not
> supporting my YZ Whizbang card" stuff for the last 10 years, and it is NOT
> Company X's fault - it's the consumer who wants to believe hype about
> hardware without paying attention to compatibility.  My Soundblaster may
not
> have done some of the stuff those other cards did, but I NEVER had to wait
> for a patch for a game to work with it - much the same with my 3dfx cards
> today.

> IF for whatever reason a non-3dfx card is best for you and the majority of
> your games, then you buy that KNOWING that GPL is one that WON'T support
it,
> and have to just DEAL WITH IT, instead of whining about Papy and them not
> being omniscient about what hardware is going to be like in 2 years back
> when they started.

> Plus, the fact that GPL and many other games with OpenGL patches don't
work
> that well is that the card makers don't have good drivers for it, they
only
> are really concerned with Quake, etc. with those OpenGL drivers, if
anything
> else works on it than it's a plus.

> --
> Ken's Sig 3.0

> "Who is the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" -
Obi-Wan
> Kenobi

> Go #43 and #44!

> volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
> volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com




> >>Path:

> >>> Their decisions were sound.

> >>Absolutely.
> >No way. a 2 year game path is completely typical, i'm afraid. Papy
dropped
> the
> >ball, where many others did not.

> >Z.

> >Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Ed Ba

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by Ed Ba » Sun, 13 Jun 1999 04:00:00

On Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:07:43 +1000,


If the game makers did what you recommend, we would still
be playing DOS games.

LOL!

--
// email: rrevved at mindspring dot com

John Simmo

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by John Simmo » Sun, 13 Jun 1999 04:00:00



Sierra doesn't write any of their own games (I don't think).  they
certainly diodn't write GPL or Half-Life.  They're merely publishers.
I've already explained why games seem to be a half-step behind the
technology but people that think they know better told me I was full of
shit. Oh well...

--
=========================================================
John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12)
http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html

John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector
http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html

IGPS (Season 2) Director
http://207.104.111.77/igps2/igps2.html

If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's
shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame.
=========================================================

Ken Bear

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by Ken Bear » Sun, 13 Jun 1999 04:00:00

No, it's the people who don't follow a very simple mantra are the ones who
"dropped the ball"

Buy ALL *** hardware to SUPPORT the games you RUN.  Extremely simple.  It
was true back in the "100% Sound Blaster Compatible" (NOT) soundcard era,
and is true today.  I've heard all this complaining about "Company X not
supporting my YZ Whizbang card" stuff for the last 10 years, and it is NOT
Company X's fault - it's the consumer who wants to believe hype about
hardware without paying attention to compatibility.  My Soundblaster may not
have done some of the stuff those other cards did, but I NEVER had to wait
for a patch for a game to work with it - much the same with my 3dfx cards
today.

IF for whatever reason a non-3dfx card is best for you and the majority of
your games, then you buy that KNOWING that GPL is one that WON'T support it,
and have to just DEAL WITH IT, instead of whining about Papy and them not
being omniscient about what hardware is going to be like in 2 years back
when they started.

Plus, the fact that GPL and many other games with OpenGL patches don't work
that well is that the card makers don't have good drivers for it, they only
are really concerned with Quake, etc. with those OpenGL drivers, if anything
else works on it than it's a plus.

--
Ken's Sig 3.0

"Who is the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan
Kenobi

Go #43 and #44!

volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com




>>Path:

>>> Their decisions were sound.

>>Absolutely.
>No way. a 2 year game path is completely typical, i'm afraid. Papy dropped
the
>ball, where many others did not.

>Z.

>Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Mortado Fil

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by Mortado Fil » Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:00:00

On Sat, 12 Jun 1999 03:48:40 -0400, "Ken Beard"


>No, it's the people who don't follow a very simple mantra are the ones who
>"dropped the ball"

>Buy ALL *** hardware to SUPPORT the games you RUN.

*snip*

Amen Brother.
Chris

Kai Fulle

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by Kai Fulle » Wed, 16 Jun 1999 04:00:00

hmm, you make it sound like 3Dfx has such a margin of compatibility
supperieority. GPL is the only one I know of. (Not to say they aren't out
there, but in recent game (1999 or newer) you are pretty much guerenteed D3D
support.

Now If the OpenGL drivers seem to work so well with any game that supports
it out of the box, but games that take a patch don't seem to work well. But
somehow that is the fault of the companies making the drivers? It sounds
like the patches have been of lesser quality than those that fcame right
from the box.

The TNT2 is the best card on the market and just because poor selling GPL
dosn't support it, dosn't even take a % off a compatibility rating, 1 year
ago I would agree rthat 3dfx is the way to go, but glide just isn't a
requirement for games anymore. D3D is really the soundblaster compatable you
refer to.


>No, it's the people who don't follow a very simple mantra are the ones who
>"dropped the ball"

>Buy ALL *** hardware to SUPPORT the games you RUN.  Extremely simple.
It
>was true back in the "100% Sound Blaster Compatible" (NOT) soundcard era,
>and is true today.  I've heard all this complaining about "Company X not
>supporting my YZ Whizbang card" stuff for the last 10 years, and it is NOT
>Company X's fault - it's the consumer who wants to believe hype about
>hardware without paying attention to compatibility.  My Soundblaster may
not
>have done some of the stuff those other cards did, but I NEVER had to wait
>for a patch for a game to work with it - much the same with my 3dfx cards
>today.

>IF for whatever reason a non-3dfx card is best for you and the majority of
>your games, then you buy that KNOWING that GPL is one that WON'T support
it,
>and have to just DEAL WITH IT, instead of whining about Papy and them not
>being omniscient about what hardware is going to be like in 2 years back
>when they started.

>Plus, the fact that GPL and many other games with OpenGL patches don't work
>that well is that the card makers don't have good drivers for it, they only
>are really concerned with Quake, etc. with those OpenGL drivers, if
anything
>else works on it than it's a plus.

>--
>Ken's Sig 3.0

>"Who is the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" -
Obi-Wan
>Kenobi

>Go #43 and #44!

>volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
>volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com




>>>Path:

>>>> Their decisions were sound.

>>>Absolutely.
>>No way. a 2 year game path is completely typical, i'm afraid. Papy dropped
>the
>>ball, where many others did not.

>>Z.

>>Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Kai Fulle

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by Kai Fulle » Wed, 16 Jun 1999 04:00:00

right, but I don't think any games coming out from this point on will not be
supporting either D3D or OpenGL. So if you don't have any games now or
planning on buying a earlier released title you should do well with a
non-Glide card.

why anyone would make a game supporting OpenGL is un-clear to me, If it's
made specifically for Quake, then D3D is a good option, I'm not sure why
Companies waste thier time on OGL. D3D is most likely the best at this
point.


>I'd buy that view, IF I didn't see TONS of these posts, about GPL, Tribes,
>NR99, Longbow 2, F15 and many, many other games that aren't THAT old that
>people can't run right without Glide support.  These folks scream about
>wanting a patch, and then scream when it still doesn't work right.  An
>OpenGL patch WOULD work on these games if the cards had PROPER OpenGL
>drivers, and not ones meant only for Quake / Quake2.  D3D and OpenGL ARE
the
>SoundBlaster Compatible of today, but as back then, sometimes you still
need
>THE SoundBlaster and not a substitute, and that is 3dfx / Glide.

>There are easily 20 games on my shelf that need, or work much better with,
a
>3dfx card.  If that isn't the case for someone, or they already have a
>Voodoo2, then the TNT2 is a great deal - but only if they analyze whether
it
>plays the games they want to play beforehand.  It is pretty lame for people
>to buy a card, knowing it doesn't support a game they play, and then
>***ing to the game company about why it doesn't work - it was the
>CONSUMER'S fault, not the company's.  If they play a LOT of GPL or NASCAR,
>and many here do, then it's their fault if it doesn't run on their card,
not
>Papy's.  I, and many others, play many games that are over 6 months old, so
>I think the compatibility rating drops much more than 1 % for the TNT2 for
>most people.  If you only play some shooters, knock yourself out and don't
>worry about it.

>And really, if they get some driver bugs worked out and speed up their
>OpenGL implementation, the Matrox G400 will the best card out.  It wipes
the
>floor with everything else in D3D from all the benchmarks I've seen.

>--
>Ken's Sig 3.0

>"Who is the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" -
Obi-Wan
>Kenobi

>Go #43 and #44!

>volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
>volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com


>>hmm, you make it sound like 3Dfx has such a margin of compatibility
>>supperieority. GPL is the only one I know of. (Not to say they aren't out
>>there, but in recent game (1999 or newer) you are pretty much guerenteed
>D3D
>>support.

>>Now If the OpenGL drivers seem to work so well with any game that supports
>>it out of the box, but games that take a patch don't seem to work well.
But
>>somehow that is the fault of the companies making the drivers? It sounds
>>like the patches have been of lesser quality than those that fcame right
>>from the box.

>>The TNT2 is the best card on the market and just because poor selling GPL
>>dosn't support it, dosn't even take a % off a compatibility rating, 1 year
>>ago I would agree rthat 3dfx is the way to go, but glide just isn't a
>>requirement for games anymore. D3D is really the soundblaster compatable
>you
>>refer to.


>>>No, it's the people who don't follow a very simple mantra are the ones
who
>>>"dropped the ball"

>>>Buy ALL *** hardware to SUPPORT the games you RUN.  Extremely simple.
>>It
>>>was true back in the "100% Sound Blaster Compatible" (NOT) soundcard era,
>>>and is true today.  I've heard all this complaining about "Company X not
>>>supporting my YZ Whizbang card" stuff for the last 10 years, and it is
NOT
>>>Company X's fault - it's the consumer who wants to believe hype about
>>>hardware without paying attention to compatibility.  My Soundblaster may
>>not
>>>have done some of the stuff those other cards did, but I NEVER had to
wait
>>>for a patch for a game to work with it - much the same with my 3dfx cards
>>>today.

>>>IF for whatever reason a non-3dfx card is best for you and the majority
of
>>>your games, then you buy that KNOWING that GPL is one that WON'T support
>>it,
>>>and have to just DEAL WITH IT, instead of whining about Papy and them not
>>>being omniscient about what hardware is going to be like in 2 years back
>>>when they started.

>>>Plus, the fact that GPL and many other games with OpenGL patches don't
>work
>>>that well is that the card makers don't have good drivers for it, they
>only
>>>are really concerned with Quake, etc. with those OpenGL drivers, if
>>anything
>>>else works on it than it's a plus.

>>>--
>>>Ken's Sig 3.0

>>>"Who is the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" -
>>Obi-Wan
>>>Kenobi

>>>Go #43 and #44!

>>>volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
>>>volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com




>>>>>Path:

>>>>>> Their decisions were sound.

>>>>>Absolutely.
>>>>No way. a 2 year game path is completely typical, i'm afraid. Papy
>dropped
>>>the
>>>>ball, where many others did not.

>>>>Z.

>>>>Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Ken Bear

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by Ken Bear » Thu, 17 Jun 1999 04:00:00

I'd buy that view, IF I didn't see TONS of these posts, about GPL, Tribes,
NR99, Longbow 2, F15 and many, many other games that aren't THAT old that
people can't run right without Glide support.  These folks scream about
wanting a patch, and then scream when it still doesn't work right.  An
OpenGL patch WOULD work on these games if the cards had PROPER OpenGL
drivers, and not ones meant only for Quake / Quake2.  D3D and OpenGL ARE the
SoundBlaster Compatible of today, but as back then, sometimes you still need
THE SoundBlaster and not a substitute, and that is 3dfx / Glide.

There are easily 20 games on my shelf that need, or work much better with, a
3dfx card.  If that isn't the case for someone, or they already have a
Voodoo2, then the TNT2 is a great deal - but only if they analyze whether it
plays the games they want to play beforehand.  It is pretty lame for people
to buy a card, knowing it doesn't support a game they play, and then
***ing to the game company about why it doesn't work - it was the
CONSUMER'S fault, not the company's.  If they play a LOT of GPL or NASCAR,
and many here do, then it's their fault if it doesn't run on their card, not
Papy's.  I, and many others, play many games that are over 6 months old, so
I think the compatibility rating drops much more than 1 % for the TNT2 for
most people.  If you only play some shooters, knock yourself out and don't
worry about it.

And really, if they get some driver bugs worked out and speed up their
OpenGL implementation, the Matrox G400 will the best card out.  It wipes the
floor with everything else in D3D from all the benchmarks I've seen.

--
Ken's Sig 3.0

"Who is the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan
Kenobi

Go #43 and #44!

volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com


>hmm, you make it sound like 3Dfx has such a margin of compatibility
>supperieority. GPL is the only one I know of. (Not to say they aren't out
>there, but in recent game (1999 or newer) you are pretty much guerenteed
D3D
>support.

>Now If the OpenGL drivers seem to work so well with any game that supports
>it out of the box, but games that take a patch don't seem to work well. But
>somehow that is the fault of the companies making the drivers? It sounds
>like the patches have been of lesser quality than those that fcame right
>from the box.

>The TNT2 is the best card on the market and just because poor selling GPL
>dosn't support it, dosn't even take a % off a compatibility rating, 1 year
>ago I would agree rthat 3dfx is the way to go, but glide just isn't a
>requirement for games anymore. D3D is really the soundblaster compatable
you
>refer to.


>>No, it's the people who don't follow a very simple mantra are the ones who
>>"dropped the ball"

>>Buy ALL *** hardware to SUPPORT the games you RUN.  Extremely simple.
>It
>>was true back in the "100% Sound Blaster Compatible" (NOT) soundcard era,
>>and is true today.  I've heard all this complaining about "Company X not
>>supporting my YZ Whizbang card" stuff for the last 10 years, and it is NOT
>>Company X's fault - it's the consumer who wants to believe hype about
>>hardware without paying attention to compatibility.  My Soundblaster may
>not
>>have done some of the stuff those other cards did, but I NEVER had to wait
>>for a patch for a game to work with it - much the same with my 3dfx cards
>>today.

>>IF for whatever reason a non-3dfx card is best for you and the majority of
>>your games, then you buy that KNOWING that GPL is one that WON'T support
>it,
>>and have to just DEAL WITH IT, instead of whining about Papy and them not
>>being omniscient about what hardware is going to be like in 2 years back
>>when they started.

>>Plus, the fact that GPL and many other games with OpenGL patches don't
work
>>that well is that the card makers don't have good drivers for it, they
only
>>are really concerned with Quake, etc. with those OpenGL drivers, if
>anything
>>else works on it than it's a plus.

>>--
>>Ken's Sig 3.0

>>"Who is the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" -
>Obi-Wan
>>Kenobi

>>Go #43 and #44!

>>volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
>>volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com




>>>>Path:

>>>>> Their decisions were sound.

>>>>Absolutely.
>>>No way. a 2 year game path is completely typical, i'm afraid. Papy
dropped
>>the
>>>ball, where many others did not.

>>>Z.

>>>Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

Ken Bear

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by Ken Bear » Thu, 17 Jun 1999 04:00:00

I agree with you - there will be very few games in the future that are
Glide-only (but there are still some for this year) - and if you don't have
a library already it's probably not that big of an issue.  But if you
do.....

And the thing with OpenGL - the only reason it really showed up on PC's from
the workstations is that John Carmack, who was behind Quake, didn't like
Direct3D (which did suck back then) and had worked on an OpenGL version of
Quake to run on his workstations.  OpenGL wasn't available on PC's at the
time except in some expensive cards, but Carmack worked with 3dfx to get GL
Quake to run on the 3dfx cards.  Basically, they made a "mini" OpenGL (hence
called MiniGL) that translated ONLY the OpenGL commands that Quake used to
3dfx's Glide, and it could now run on PC's.

Other games using the Quake engine, and later the Quake2 engine, worked fine
with the MiniGL driver.  With Quake being a big game, the other graphics
chip makers started adding OpenGL support to compete with 3dfx.  To be an
actual certified OpenGL driver though, you had to support ALL the functions
that OpenGL has, not just those that Quake uses.  Many companies went that
route, and could theoretically run any OpenGL application, some copied 3dfx
and had a Quake-specific MiniGL type driver.  But even the "full" drivers
were usually only really optimized for Quake, at least at first.  So while
they may support functions outside of what Quake uses, they may not support
them well.  Of course, any application calling something not in the MiniGL
type driver won't run at all on cards that use that style.

That is usually why some games have problems with an OpenGL patch.  For GPL
for example, the OpenGL patches basically took the calls that GPL would make
to 3dfx Glide, and translated them into the closest OpenGL equivalent -
fairly easy to do I understand since they do things somewhat similarly, and
it only required adding a small .DLL file - but to convert to Direct3D seems
to require a LOT more work, like redoing the actual game code.  The problem
was, if the OpenGL call was something outside of what was optimized for
Quake engine games, it may cause the game to not work well or to run slowly.
I recall the issue with GPL was something in the texture-handling in the TNT
OpenGL drivers that was much slower than with Glide, and caused slowdowns
when using the mirrors.  This kind of thing is what causes OpenGL to not
always work as well as it could.  With completely working and optimized
drivers, the patched OpenGL games should work just fine - but some cards
don't have OpenGL drivers that are as complete as their D3D ones, so D3D
would be better on those.  But OpenGL seems to be easier to work with, and
do some things better than D3D, so given good drivers should work as well or
better, so there are good reasons to use it.

--
Ken's Sig 3.0

"Who is the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan
Kenobi

Go #43 and #44!

volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com


>right, but I don't think any games coming out from this point on will not
be
>supporting either D3D or OpenGL. So if you don't have any games now or
>planning on buying a earlier released title you should do well with a
>non-Glide card.

>why anyone would make a game supporting OpenGL is un-clear to me, If it's
>made specifically for Quake, then D3D is a good option, I'm not sure why
>Companies waste thier time on OGL. D3D is most likely the best at this
>point.

Kai Fulle

Don't get a TNT if you want to enjoy GPL

by Kai Fulle » Thu, 17 Jun 1999 04:00:00

really? Runs NROS demo fine on my TNT with no special drivers

>I will add my experience to this old thread. I had a TNT in my
>computer and found it would not run nascar in Multi Player because of
>no VESA support. Now I know this has already been hashed over, but
>hey, it might save someone from an expensive mistake. IMHO
>-------------------------
>Steven S. Palmer

>http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/4001/
>http://www.primenet.com/~ssp/
>http://members.tripod.com/~stevenscott/
>http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/4001/jerks.html


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