rec.autos.simulators

Weight transfer?

Mats Lofkvis

Weight transfer?

by Mats Lofkvis » Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:59:13


Correct assuming you have no rear brakes.

Weight transfer is bad iff the coefficient of friction of the tire
decreases with increased load (which is supposed to be true for
real tires, don't know if kart tires differ).

E.g. with the following tire data:

Load    Coefficient of friction     Max sideways force
100     1.0                         100*1.0 = 100
200     0.9                         200*0.9 = 180
300     0.8                         300*0.8 = 240
400     0.7                         400*0.7 = 280

the total sideways force for a pair of wheels on the
same axle loaded by 400 units will be:

Load distribution  Tire loads  Max sideways force
50%+50% (equal)    200+200     180+180 = 360
75%+25%            300+100     240+100 = 340
100%+0%            400+0       280+0   = 280

i.e. the total force decreases with increased weight transfer.

Note that if the coefficient of friction _increases_ with load
(which I guess could be true at low loads so it might apply to
kart tires), you want _more_ weight transfer.

      _
Mats Lofkvist

Doug Millike

Weight transfer?

by Doug Millike » Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:00:52

As others have pointed out, there is a lot more going on in cornering than
just the diagonal weight jacking caused by steer (acting through the caster
angle).  Here are two that can be separated out--

Lateral weight transfer distribution:
The frame is not torsionaly stiff and many karts are adjustable for
stiffness.  In addition to the frame-spring, tires deflect under load so
there are four more "springs" in the system, and these are nonlinear.  All
of these contribute to the Lateral Weight Transfer Distribution (% carried
by the front pair of wheels vs % carried by the rear pair) and have
something to do with determining if/when an inside wheel will lift
off the ground.

Total weight transfer:
And you don't seem to have mentioned the total lateral weight transfer
caused by the lateral acceleration.  This is a function of your center of
gravity location (in x, y, z coordinates, moves as you lean sideways, etc)
and the effective track width at the CG location -- wider means less
total weight transfer and thus less tendency to "bicycle" the kart (other
things equal, which they never are!)

Our book contains several chapters on these topics in much greater detail,
including equations to calculate many of them--and, yes, it has been used
by successful kart racers.

-- Doug Milliken
   www.millikenresearch.com/rcvd.html <--for best service, buy direct from SAE


> x-no-archive: yes

> Guys,

> I think I've finally worked out the kart handling equation, and how the
> weight transfers. I just don't know whether I want as much weight transfer
> as possible, or as little.

> There are 2 conflicting ideas confusing me:

> The first thing is in a straight line. Under acceleration (rear wheel
> drive), the more rearward weigh transfer there is, the harder you can
> accelerate. Similarly the more forward weight transfer, the harder you can
> brake (assuming you have front brakes). So it seems that you want the weight
> over the wheels that are doing the work.

> What I don't understand is sideways weight transfer in cornering. It seems
> that the less sideways weight transfer you have, the better you can corner.

> Can someone explain this to me, please?

> Here's how the weight shifts on a kart...

> (The front end geometry on my TKM is fixed, apart from the track width, and
> toe angle. The rear track width is also adjustable.)

> When you turn the front wheels, the inside stub axle angles downwards, and
> the outside one angles upwards.
> This means that the wider the front track, the more roll you get on the
> chassis, for a given rear track width. This roll causes the inside rear
> wheel to lift. Because the inside wheel lowers and the outside wheel rises
> (relative to the chassis), widening the track will actually increase the
> weight transfer to the outside tyre.

> At the rear, the wider you have the rear wheels apart, the more the rear end
> rises when the front wheels are turned, transferring weight forwards, and
> the more the inside wheel lifts.

> So, the wider the front, the more weight transfer there is to the outside
> wheels, and the wider the rear, the more weight transfer there is to the
> front wheels, and the outside wheels. I just need to decide how much forward
> and outside weight transfer is required.

> If I need minimum weight transfer for maximum grip, then maximum grip will
> occur when the front and rear tracks are as narrow as possible, provided the
> inside rear lifts enough not to cause understeer, by pushing the front end
> straight on.

> If I need maximum weight transfer for maximum grip, then maximum grip will
> occur when the front and rear tracks are as wide as possible, provided the
> angle of the outside tyres to the track is not too great.

> Help! :-)

> Thanks.

> R.

remove EATSPAM to repl

Weight transfer?

by remove EATSPAM to repl » Wed, 17 Jul 2002 05:08:01


wrote...

Correct. This is mainly due to the "flex" in the suspension system...

corner.

Correct... The more sideways weight transfer you have, more of the
weight
goes to the outside wheel(s). As you also LOSE speed in the corners, the
front/outside wheel gets more weight, and thus, the FRONT wheel may
maintain
traction, but the REAR wheels may "break loose".

In fact, on cars with too soft suspensions, it's possible for the
inside/rear wheel
to completely LEAVE THE GROUND in a hard turn.

It also wears out your tires, if you simulate tread wear, esp. the right
front. To
counter that, in NASCAR Racing games, you have to use at least "medium"
if not "hard" compound on the right front, which further DECREASES
traction.

Well, at least that's my amateur version of the facts. :-)

--KC

Phil Le

Weight transfer?

by Phil Le » Wed, 17 Jul 2002 05:20:36


To totally change the subject, I loved seeing the Milliken camber car go up
the hill at Goodwood. Definitely the most unusual car at the Festival.

Phil
---
Race Sim Central Administrator
http://www.racesimcentral.com

Steve Smit

Weight transfer?

by Steve Smit » Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:31:56

Hi Doug,

I also tried to point out to Richard the impossibility of quantifying all
the obvious forces at work here (like those in an AA/Fuel dragster...another
vehicle with a willowy chassis and no suspension - and they put the rear
tires close together to *minimize* lat weight transfer), not to mention the
most active suspension element of all: the driver!  In a go-kart, the driver
is a huge unsprung component endowed with the ability to shift the weight
where needed (like a co-rider on a side-car rig).  Body English plays as
much of a role here as it does in bike racing...but it can't be measured,
and probably not even articulated in engineering terms.

--Steve


> As others have pointed out, there is a lot more going on in cornering than
> just the diagonal weight jacking caused by steer (acting through the
caster
> angle).  Here are two that can be separated out--

> Lateral weight transfer distribution:
> The frame is not torsionaly stiff and many karts are adjustable for
> stiffness.  In addition to the frame-spring, tires deflect under load so
> there are four more "springs" in the system, and these are nonlinear.  All
> of these contribute to the Lateral Weight Transfer Distribution (% carried
> by the front pair of wheels vs % carried by the rear pair) and have
> something to do with determining if/when an inside wheel will lift
> off the ground.

> Total weight transfer:
> And you don't seem to have mentioned the total lateral weight transfer
> caused by the lateral acceleration.  This is a function of your center of
> gravity location (in x, y, z coordinates, moves as you lean sideways, etc)
> and the effective track width at the CG location -- wider means less
> total weight transfer and thus less tendency to "bicycle" the kart (other
> things equal, which they never are!)

> Our book contains several chapters on these topics in much greater detail,
> including equations to calculate many of them--and, yes, it has been used
> by successful kart racers.

> -- Doug Milliken
>    www.millikenresearch.com/rcvd.html <--for best service, buy direct from
SAE


> > x-no-archive: yes

> > Guys,

> > I think I've finally worked out the kart handling equation, and how the
> > weight transfers. I just don't know whether I want as much weight
transfer
> > as possible, or as little.

> > There are 2 conflicting ideas confusing me:

> > The first thing is in a straight line. Under acceleration (rear wheel
> > drive), the more rearward weigh transfer there is, the harder you can
> > accelerate. Similarly the more forward weight transfer, the harder you
can
> > brake (assuming you have front brakes). So it seems that you want the
weight
> > over the wheels that are doing the work.

> > What I don't understand is sideways weight transfer in cornering. It
seems
> > that the less sideways weight transfer you have, the better you can
corner.

> > Can someone explain this to me, please?

> > Here's how the weight shifts on a kart...

> > (The front end geometry on my TKM is fixed, apart from the track width,
and
> > toe angle. The rear track width is also adjustable.)

> > When you turn the front wheels, the inside stub axle angles downwards,
and
> > the outside one angles upwards.
> > This means that the wider the front track, the more roll you get on the
> > chassis, for a given rear track width. This roll causes the inside rear
> > wheel to lift. Because the inside wheel lowers and the outside wheel
rises
> > (relative to the chassis), widening the track will actually increase the
> > weight transfer to the outside tyre.

> > At the rear, the wider you have the rear wheels apart, the more the rear
end
> > rises when the front wheels are turned, transferring weight forwards,
and
> > the more the inside wheel lifts.

> > So, the wider the front, the more weight transfer there is to the
outside
> > wheels, and the wider the rear, the more weight transfer there is to the
> > front wheels, and the outside wheels. I just need to decide how much
forward
> > and outside weight transfer is required.

> > If I need minimum weight transfer for maximum grip, then maximum grip
will
> > occur when the front and rear tracks are as narrow as possible, provided
the
> > inside rear lifts enough not to cause understeer, by pushing the front
end
> > straight on.

> > If I need maximum weight transfer for maximum grip, then maximum grip
will
> > occur when the front and rear tracks are as wide as possible, provided
the
> > angle of the outside tyres to the track is not too great.

> > Help! :-)

> > Thanks.

> > R.

Doug Millike

Weight transfer?

by Doug Millike » Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:12:50

......

Do you know if there are any pictures from Goodwood posted on the web?
Where?

-- Doug Milliken

Phil Le

Weight transfer?

by Phil Le » Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:56:14

Here are two sites with photos taken by a couple of people from VROC:

http://www.mkeizer1.cistron.nl/Goodwood/page_01.htm

http://www.djellison.plus.com/gwood/

There are a few more in this thread on my forum:

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34469

These mainly concentrate on the GPL tent at Goodwood but do include some
nice car photos.

I have some to post as soon as I get them developed (oh for a digital
camera). I'm pretty sure I took one of the camber car going up the hill.

Phil
---
Race Sim Central Administrator
http://www.racesimcentral.com

Steve Smit

Weight transfer?

by Steve Smit » Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:14:40

Phil,

Thx for posting!  A bit thin on pit str...er, crumpets.  Where do I get a
GPL T-shirt?

--Steve


Phil Le

Weight transfer?

by Phil Le » Fri, 19 Jul 2002 02:17:02


There are only a few left. Glenn Read (panclan) who organised the GPL stand
at Goodwood has the remaining stock. He has adverised them at RSC in this
thread:

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36524

Phil
---
Race Sim Central Administrator
http://www.racesimcentral.com


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