rec.autos.simulators

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

Scott Hieronymu

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by Scott Hieronymu » Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Since the general tone seems to be controlability, something that helped me
make a huge leap forward at all tracks was strictly in setup.
I noticed that a setup I downloaded for the Ferrari had quite a bit of
negative toe in at the front, and quite a bit of positive toe in at the
rear. It is my belief that this, combined with fairly stiff roll bars, made
the car much more controllable. It's easy to catch under braking and
acceleration. Might want to give it a try.

Scott




> >   There's been a thread on here saying that GP3 when it appears should
> > be harder to drive than GPL because modern cars are more difficult to
> > drive.

> Did I hear you right? Modern cars are more difficult to drive than the F1
> cars from the late 60's.

> Anybody mind if I check under the bed and in the wardrobe for Mr. Beadle?

> >   1) Realism.  In real life, a moderately talented GP driver with
> > limited laps can do a whole bunch of laps at 80% push with no danger
> > of going off.  In GPL, only great drivers can do that after months of
> > practice.  I still have whoopses driving slowly after months of
> > dedicated practice and there are plenty out tehre worse than me.  GPL
> > is clearly harder (for whatever reason) than real life.

> No, it simply means that when we drive GPL, we push ourselves much harder
> than the real drivers of the era would ever have dared. Afterall, GPL only
> simulates real life events, but they were actually driving real life
itself.
> If they spun off less, it was probably because they dared not push
> themselves beyond the limit of their control. Most good F1 drivers today
> however will rely heavily on the feedback and support from their car which
> allows them to make exciting manoeuvres. It's not always because they're
> better drivers.

> >   5) Better racing.  How many times do you see a clean start in GPL
> > outside league racing.  I don't think I've ever seen a clean grid get
> > away without some mishap.  Imagine how much more enjoyable racing would
> > be if there was a game with the same depth of feel but all the drivers
> > were likely to stay nearly together for the first few laps.  GPL almost
> > never has the feel of "the pack" in non-league racing because you never
> > get enough drivers good enough to drive close and fast because it's so
> > hard to drive.

> I disagree with this too. I've had some very memorable 'tight-pack'
moments
> on-line at Watkins Glen where cars have been moving from one position to
> another half a dozen times a minute. All cars finished within 4 seconds of
> each other at the very end, besides one kamikaze driver who decided that
> suicide would be a better option, once his engine began to give way, then
> finishing the race last.

> >   Just a few points to (hopefully) make people think.  I get the idea
> > from some people that their ideal "sim" would dump you in the bushes
> > every third corner and whack you in the face with a plank while it was
> > doing it.  Realism is not the same as *** and difficult to drive
> > is not the same as accurate.

> Can't argue with you there.

> Best regards,

> The Phoenix

Mike Laske

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by Mike Laske » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00



Fact: all cars are difficult to drive when on the limit.  Be it a go-kart, a
racing car or a sit-on lawn-mower.  If the game models the car and its
attributes closely enough, it should be easy to drive up to a point, but
something to add is that even the most difficult of handling cars to drive
should have some degree of predictability, and this is what allows you to
drive fast and "feel" the edge.  There shouldn't exist a situation where it
is possible to drive easily AND as fast as possible.  Driving to the limit
should use up your full amount of concentration - and in these situations,
it should always be possible to go off.

Mike.

Brad

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by Brad » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00

This is a cool discussion. I try to take each game on its own merits. I have
had GPL for approx. 9 months now. I am still relatively hopeless( best
performed 7 laps no offs and lap of1:35.4{Monza} in intermediate using an
Alison Hines setup). Still as difficult as it is I enjoy it immensley each
time I play it. I just find it too frustrating to play for too long,but man
the sound of that Ferrari in full song(Pits patch) chills me.Similarly GP2
and ICR2 are still on my machine and played. Both of these took me a long
time to learn too. My point is that all my favorite driving games/sims took
me a long time to come to grips with. Those ,TOCA 2 NFS's SCGT type games
were quick to get into and fun to,but were just as quick to get out of.
How much reality/frustration you are willing to put upwith is a personal
thing. But it is just this realism that for me makes a sim playable again
and again.Maybe in a years time I'll bea good GPL driver maybe not but for
now those 7 laps arestill real enjoyable.
I hope we never get to the situation were sims become instantly  accessable
for the sake of  mass acceptance.
Brad


Steve Ferguso

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by Steve Ferguso » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00

:>
:> Sounds cool. Remind me not to lend my car to you though!!!

: No problem :)

: I was very careful to make sure there was
: nothing around to make contact with.  It
: was nothing more than what happens at an
: autocross event.

Thanks for the loan of the car... sorry about the rear tires.  :)

Stephen

Jan Hoviu

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by Jan Hoviu » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00



> :>  I think one of the BIGGEST failings with GPL's much-vaunted
> :> physics model is that those slight degrees between "on the money"
> :> and a total spin are almost completely indiscernable

> : Sorry, but for me the whole thrill of GPL is that you *can* tread the fine
> : line between traction and Meet Mr. Wall. Racing at the edge of performance
> : should always be this difficult, it's just that the edge moves around
> : (different envelope/whatever) depending upon vehicle type.

> I don't get a lot of "seat time" in GPL (maybe a few hours on the
> weekends) and yet I also find the "feel" very communicative, much moreso
> than any other game out there.  I drive with a ***joystick and I still
> find it quite easy to catch slides, hold them exactly where I want them
> etc.  I still don't think it's the big, bad program everyone says it
> is.  I think it's great.

Who is saying that it is a ***program? Not in R.A.S.!!!! In fact I think it's
the only sim they're still talking about after more than one and a half year
after release date!!!! Fact is that it is not perfect but IMHO it's the one
closest to this state (up until now).

Jan.

TI Alexander Mar

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by TI Alexander Mar » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Yes, there's a very noticable difference! Some GPL experts at this time
compared GPL 1.2 with TOCA2 and accused papy of "dumbing down" GPL too
much for the masses.

Richard G Cleg

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by Richard G Cleg » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00


:>
:>   Well, as I think everyone knows now, I hope they deliever
:> something with the complexity of GPL, the driving aids of
:> GP2 and a large amount of "give" and "feel" to allow us
:> lesser drivers to keep the thing lined up on track long enough
:> to enjoy it.

: Just curious.  Are you able to discern any
: difference between GPL 1.0 and GPL 1.2 when
: driving with the same setup?  I think the
: tire modeling got quite a bit of attention
: between those two versions.

  I can't - or rather, the addition of force feed-back was such
a _major_ change that physical tweaks I don't notice as much.  I
simply don't like non-FF GPL these days.

--
Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
    Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
      Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
    www:  http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Richard G Cleg

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by Richard G Cleg » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00


: I hope we never get to the situation were sims become instantly  accessable
: for the sake of  mass acceptance.
: Brad

  Brad,
        What I'm trying to argue for isn't a situation where everyone
can get in and drive at the same speed - no fun.  What I _am_ arguing
for is a situation where the car has enough give and feel that it is
more "catchable" at the limit.  Of course there will always be times
when you miss it and throw the car into the gravel.  

--
Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
    Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
      Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
    www:  http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Richard G Cleg

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by Richard G Cleg » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00

: [1] Interesting aside. Apparently the Weslake V12 was originally intended to
: be a BRM...

  I'd never heard this - do you mean that Weslake was originally
intending to flog his engine to BRM?  I thought that Eagle and Weslake
sort of started together.

  I'd also heard that the Weslake was originally cobbled together from
6 V twins - not sure if that one's true.

--
Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
    Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
      Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
    www:  http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

TI Alexander Mar

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by TI Alexander Mar » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00

But this "simsomething" should still be designed to drive WITHOUT the
aids, and the aids should be there to help he beginner learn how to
drive - IMHO they should not be there to make the inexperienced driver
competitive how you demand it. This kind of feature should instead be
implemented as a cheat code, the use of which can be detected and
disabled. A negative example would be MGPRS2 - this is a very good and
exciting Sim (If you are able to forgive the highl unrealistic track
layouts) as long as you drive with all the aids on - with no-aids it is
a pain - it just doesn't work and it becomes clear that not enough
thought and testing went into the driving physics and controls when
using no aids. As long as you drive with aids on - you don't notice it
because the sim compensates for these deficiencies.

The Fact that the sim allows you to turn much faster laps with the aids
on is annoying, but no real failure. If the drivers in modern F1 could
use electronic driving aids such as Automatic shifting, traction control
or ABS they would also be much faster, so the effect of these aids may
be even realistic. But IMO they shouldn't be a valid option, just a
cheat code and the sim / game should be designed with the idea that the
player is driving without aids.

Getting back to GPL, I absolutely love the difficulty balance of this
sim when you turn the global hype scaling off. Racing the AI has never
been that exciting in any Sim / Game before and this is often overlooked
as the talk about GPL is focussed very much on VROC. If it sadly weren't
for some very obvious flaws in the AI (T3R at Kyalami, Loews at Monza,
the infamous Parabolica problem), I could just go on and call it
perfect.    

Alex

Steve Ferguso

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by Steve Ferguso » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00

:>
:> I don't get a lot of "seat time" in GPL (maybe a few hours on the
:> weekends) and yet I also find the "feel" very communicative, much moreso
:> than any other game out there.  I drive with a ***joystick and I still
:> find it quite easy to catch slides, hold them exactly where I want them
:> etc.  I still don't think it's the big, bad program everyone says it
:> is.  I think it's great.
:>

: Who is saying that it is a ***program? Not in R.A.S.!!!! In fact I think it's
: the only sim they're still talking about after more than one and a half year
: after release date!!!! Fact is that it is not perfect but IMHO it's the one
: closest to this state (up until now).

You've misinterpreted my note, but I'm sure there are more than a few
Dutch sayings that I wouldn't understand :)  I don't mean "bad" in the
literal sense of "not good".  I mean "big, bad" as in "this thing deserves
a LOT of respect".  GPL is the 500kg gorilla of racing sims, or at least
that is its reputation.  Most people feel you have to give it a lot
respect, and step very lightly.  I would argue that it is somehow one of
the *easier* sims to drive, because the steering is so fluid, the feedback
so good, the***pit motion dead-on.

Stephen

TI Alexander Mar

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by TI Alexander Mar » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00

yea, sure %:) At least the first three characters are correct, aren't
they ? It's monaco , of course....

Jonathon Gree

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by Jonathon Gree » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00



>: [1] Interesting aside. Apparently the Weslake V12 was originally intended
to
>: be a BRM...

>  I'd never heard this - do you mean that Weslake was originally
>intending to flog his engine to BRM?  I thought that Eagle and Weslake
>sort of started together.

>  I'd also heard that the Weslake was originally cobbled together from
>6 V twins - not sure if that one's true.

Assuming that the account on Motorsport is correct, you could be half right
here...

I'll quote verbatim, hopefully remaining within the "fair usage"
convention...

"The engine originated from a design by Aubrey Woods and Harry Weslake, that
was rejected by BRM for the new 3-litre formula of 1966. It was highly
thought of at Weslakes however, and in its narrow angle cylinder head was
genuinely ground-breaking. So, a two cylinder version was produced and
tested to such effect that Gurney needed little persuading to ask Weslake to
build the proper thing for the Eagle..."

I doesn't say what shape the twin cylinder test engine was, but producing a
"slice" off the projected V-12 certainly sounds plausible. That test engine
might have made a rather fine 500cc GP motorcycle engine for somebody :-)

If I can be permitted to qo off at a minor tangent here there's a pleasing
symetry at work here, in that Cosworth were later to produce a twin-cylinder
motorcycle engine for a projected Norton by (effectively) hacking a pair of
cylinders off one bank of the DFV motor to produce a parrarell twin engine.
Norton never used the engine in competition, but it  later re-surfaced to
great effect as the "Quantel Challenge" BoTT racer which, apparently, was
able to short-cut about five years of engine development by simply nicking
combustion chamber shapes, porting, and camshaft profiles from the
then-current incarnation of the DFV!

Further tangent: Isn't it a shame that nobody's come up with a way of
hacking the car models in GPL so that you could build hybrids. On more than
one occasion I've found myself wondering what the Cooper/Coventry (lovely to
drive, but just not fast enough...)would be capable of if you could replace
that heavy, rather underpowered Maserati engine with, say, the Weslake unit,
and what a Brabham/Cosworth might go like just doesn't bear thinking about
:-)

--
JG

Richard G Cleg

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by Richard G Cleg » Sat, 22 Jan 2000 04:00:00

: Assuming that the account on Motorsport is correct, you could be half right
: here...
  <Excellent stuff snipped - thanks>

: Further tangent: Isn't it a shame that nobody's come up with a way of
: hacking the car models in GPL so that you could build hybrids. On more than
: one occasion I've found myself wondering what the Cooper/Coventry (lovely to
: drive, but just not fast enough...)would be capable of if you could replace
: that heavy, rather underpowered Maserati engine with, say, the Weslake unit,
: and what a Brabham/Cosworth might go like just doesn't bear thinking about
: :-)

  Heh - how about a Cooper with a BRM engine - that'd be a challenge -
so rear-end heavy it'd probably spend most of it's time doing wheelies :-)

--
Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
    Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
      Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
    www:  http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Eldre

GP why it _shouldn't_ be harder than GPL

by Eldre » Sun, 23 Jan 2000 04:00:00



>Fortunately, we have the luxury with a sim to
>continually flirt with the limits of control of
>the car, until it is etched into our minds.  GPL
>is not hard for me because I know how to sense
>the limits of the car based on the limited feed-
>back the sim gives me.  Someone who hasn't become
>sensitized to that feedback cannot possibly drive
>the car well.

That's why I have problems with Zandvoort and Monaco.  On those tracks, I often
lose it before I know *why*...

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends?  Goto  http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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