rec.autos.simulators

:>  I think one of the BIGGEST failings with GPL's much-vaunted
:> physics model is that those slight degrees between "on the money"
:> and a total spin are almost completely indiscernable

: Sorry, but for me the whole thrill of GPL is that you *can* tread the fine
: line between traction and Meet Mr. Wall. Racing at the edge of performance
: should always be this difficult, it's just that the edge moves around
: (different envelope/whatever) depending upon vehicle type.

I don't get a lot of "seat time" in GPL (maybe a few hours on the
weekends) and yet I also find the "feel" very communicative, much moreso
than any other game out there.  I drive with a ***joystick and I still
find it quite easy to catch slides, hold them exactly where I want them
etc.  I still don't think it's the big, bad program everyone says it
is.  I think it's great.

Stephen

Most people racing on VROC tend to think they can attack their personal
best time by going 120% EVERY race lap and can move up several positions
at the start. This is nuts. I have been doing LAN races with people that
CAN do 1.05s at watkins in qualifying but were only doing 1.07/1.08
during the race. When people stay within the limits of their abilities
and concentration racing in the "pack" is possible in GPL.
Also, you have to react to what is happening on the screen in GPL, you
have to know what to do- and when. In real life no one would have
entered the ascari curve at 290+ kph WITHOUT knowing what do do when he
starts to feel that he's slightly off the ideal line and starts do drift
wide.

What would you call moderate speeds ? If you do speeds similar to those
you would do in a road car and stay in the low rev range you will be
surprised how easy and yet realistic the handling of GPL in fact is.
90mph might feel "slow" in GPL, but it's VERY fast in real life.
I think that "GPL is too difficult" thing is a bit of a myth. I'm more
frustrated with most Arcade games than I am with GPL. I tried to do a
bit of fun racing with NFS4 one day with a friend, and he always was
faster than me - I tried braking later, tried to brake differently,
accelerate earlier, trailbrake deep into the corner - no success. He
still was 4 seconds faster. I was really getting frustrated UNTIL the
other day I found out that all I had to do was in fact stay full
throttle all the time around the circuit and turn the wheel.  THIS is
frustration.
SCGT also suffers from this, you can't do things by instinct, you have
to do what the  game wants you to do even if it does feel completely
unnatural to you.
Most games designed today are racing games. GPL is a driving simulator
with the added bonus that you can race other cars once you're good
enough. I sincerely hope that the developers of WSC will take same
approach - then it could really be great.

Alex

  With GPL, Papy

Again, I think that "GPL is too difficult" thing is a bit of a myth. I'm
more frustrated with most Arcade games than I am with GPL. I tried to do
a bit of fun racing with NFS4 one day with a friend, and he always was
faster than me - I tried braking later, tried to brake differently,
accelerate earlier, trailbrake deep into the corner - no success. He
still was 4 seconds faster. I was really getting frustrated UNTIL the
other day I found out that all I had to do was in fact stay full
throttle all the time around the circuit and turn the wheel.  THIS is
frustration.
SCGT also suffers from this, you can't do things by instinct, you have
to do what the  game wants you to do even if it does feel completely
unnatural to you.
Most games designed today are racing games. GPL is a driving simulator
with the added bonus that you can race other cars once you're good
enough. I sincerely hope that the developers of WSC will take same
approach.

sorry

I'm no expert in GPL or racing in general, but if it's true that
40% of the drivers who started the racing season ended up dead in
those cars, I'd have to assume that their problems were not that
"catchable" at all. Maybe they avoided a few accidents by getting
back into control, but eventually they couldn't avoid crashing
badly. I don't know, but there probably was lot more spinning
in the sixties than nowadays. Or am I wrong?

Anyway, my driving in GPL is like that, you catch some, you lose one.
(I haven't been winning many races :) But, like I said, I'm
no expert.

        - Jussi

: indeed what makes it THAT difficult to learn (to learn, not to drive). I
: can do laps at 90% all day without going off. But to get it right for a
: 100% lap it takes a lot of concentration and determination. And what
: makes GPL so special is that there's still that thin red line between
: 100-105% that you can sometimes touch in a qualifying lap. Balancing
: these cars "on the edge" is possible with GPL, but only for the most

The humbling thing for me, of course, is that my 100% laps *are* 90% laps
for a lot of the really hot GPL drivers, so I'm not getting the full
experience!

Stephen

: Within 24 hours of the release of the original
: demo, I was doing 1:07's at Watkins Glen, and
: doing them consistently.  That was with the
: horrible default setup and never having driven
: the sim before.

  So you're a natural at it - it took me months to
get to that time (with good controls and everything
set up properly).

: When the Monza track demo came out, I
: purposefully tested my ability to adapt my
: GPL driving skill to a new track.  After
: installing the new track, I pulled out out of
: the pits and gradually worked up to speed.
: With no crashes, and no spins, I did a
: 1:29 in less than 20 laps.  Again, this
: was with the same crappy default setup.

  I think your experience is somewhat unusual.

: The point is that with the right attitude,
: and a little bit of patience, GPL is not
: that hard.  If it takes someone months to
: get consistent it's because either a) their
: controls aren't set up properly, or b) they
: aren't able to learn from mistakes and use
: that knowledge to adapt.

  I disagree and I'm sure a number of people on
here would disagree completely.  Some of us just
take longer.

:> >   Certainly - and I am questionning whether something which "responds
:> > properly to inputs" is likely to be nigh on undrivable for the first
:> few months you try it.  I don't believe so.

: Sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, but there is
: no reason for it to take months to drive GPL
: consistently.  The beautiful thing about GPL,
: though, is that after months, there is still
: a lot to learn about driving it.  I'm still
: learning after more than a year and a half.

  Yes - most of us are - but I think your experience
is the exception rather than the rule.  A lot of people
(like myself) still find themselves spinning out
inexplicably after many months of dedicated practice.

  Compare with reality - there are a few "naturals" who
can do your thing of putting in good laps - there are many
"strugglers" like myself who have to work at it for months to
get to that stage.

:> Somebody will ultimately get it right, though -- and the latest
:> contender appears to be the WSC folks.  I hope they're listening to all
:> this . . .

: What I hope they deliver is a sim with the
: complexity of GPL, and the driving aids of
: GP2.  Then, I think everyone can be happy.

  Well, as I think everyone knows now, I hope they deliever
something with the complexity of GPL, the driving aids of
GP2 and a large amount of "give" and "feel" to allow us
lesser drivers to keep the thing lined up on track long enough
to enjoy it.

--
Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
    Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
      Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
    www:  http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

:>   There's been a thread on here saying that GP3 when it appears should
:> be harder to drive than GPL because modern cars are more difficult to
:> drive.

: Did I hear you right? Modern cars are more difficult to drive than the F1
: cars from the late 60's.

  I'm not firmly convinced by this - but I have a few reasons to believe
it.  The 67 F1 cars had higher tyre grip at a slip angle - which should
mean they lose traction progressively - you know before they let go.
Modern F1 cars do not have this and apparently lose grip very quickly.

  Modern F1 cars are extremely aero-sensitive and set-up is critical.
The performance can be severely compromised by a cross-wind.  This area
was less critical in the 67 cars.

  A '67 car generated no down-force and probably a modicum of lift.
Aero downforce is surely going to make driving more difficult since
the grip you get is going to change through the corner - particularly if
there is a significant cross-wind.

  A modern car can lose 1/2 a second a lap due to a change in track
temperature.  Surely this is going to make it more tricky if your
corner entry speed has to reduce because the sun's gone in?

  OK - there are a few reasons to believe the '67 cars would be harder
to drive - the high power to grip and the manual gear box.  Overall tho,
I think a modern car is a more sensitive beast and more demanding on
the driver.  

  I believe that various drivers have described the Lotus 49 as
"surprisingly easy to drive".  Mario Andretti for one.

--
Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
    Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
      Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
    www:  http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

: Just imagine that instead of a 1/4 scale model car,
: you had a full-size real F1 car set up with a
: camera and remote control.  Do you really think
: you could control the car with remote control by
: watching a video monitor?  There is no way.  It
: would be more difficult than GPL, with more to
: lose on the first crash.  You could never learn to
: drive it quickly, because the car wouldn't survive.

  why do you believe this?  I don't think you're correct.
Especially if you had FF wheel and pedals.  OK, you might write
the car off eventually, but I think that a good driver could do OK
with this set up if there were minimal delay between input and image.

--
Richard G. Clegg       Only the mind is waving
    Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
      Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
    www:  http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

I think alot of the deficiencies are in the lack of physical feedback in
GPL.  Then again alot more of the deficiencies are the lack of the
"player" learning to adapt to the feedback cues that GPL does offer and
the refusal to drive within those limits.

<snip>

%   If there were a damping effect which would cause a car to
% loose speed rather than spin (I outlined some possible mechanisms) then
% that would make driving a lot easier since when you went over the
% limit you wouldn't loose it totally...  I think this is more in tune
% with real life where drivers have more "catchable" problems than spins.
% In GPL a lot of drivers seem to be either on the money or in the bushes
% - in real life drivers are on the money, slightly off line, lots off
% line, have a moment or spin...  I think this is a failing in the GPL
% model that means spins/wash-outs aren't progressive.

Again, this is more a deficiency in the player and not the physics of
GPL.  Of course I must admit that the physics in GPL are not perfect nor
model real-life 100%.  But just as in real life, not everyone has the
skill or talent to become a F1 pilot.  The same applies to GPL.  There
are some drivers who can take a GPL car to the edge and know where that
edge is.  Then there are many drivers who simply ignore the edge and try
to muscle the car around the track.  The latter will always be on/off
drivers.  But, the former can take the car over the bitter edge and bring
it back into shape and carry on the ever repeating process of pushing
the envelope to almost breaking and back again.

<snip>

%   Certainly - and I am questionning whether something which "responds
% properly to inputs" is likely to be nigh on undrivable for the first few
% months you try it.  I don't believe so.

Show me anyone who could tool around all day in a family sedan through
the normal streets and freeways that could be plunked into the seat of
1967 F1 car that could drive it to its potential within a couple of
months.  F1 pilots have years of experience in other forms of racing
before they ever get a chance to pilot the cream-of-the-crop racing
car.

<snip>

%   Sure - agreed except for the last bit about "limits on how real..."
% I believe that in a realistic sim all but a field of absolute novices
% could make clean starts and race in a pack.  Remember that this was the
% case in '67 - some of the guys racing in GPs were not experienced
% drivers.  

Yeh, they were just bicycle messanger kids that got a chance to race
because of some contest they entered. <G>

<snip>

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Having said that, Mario Andrettis view of "easy to drive" may be just a
little different to mine :-)

[1] Interesting aside. Apparently the Weslake V12 was originally intended to
be
     a BRM...
--
JG

It would be an interesting experiment, eh?

Last week, I had a '98 Formula Firebird with
a V8 in my possesion temporarily.  The cool thing
about that car is it has some sort of locking
rear axle, so that if one wheel starts to spin,
power is transferred to the other wheel.

I'd been experimenting quite a bit with accelerat-
ing around a corner and feathering the throttle to
maintain that edge where the rear wheels are
slipping, but not spinning out of control.  This
was all done at low speed, and felt just like
GPL does when doing the same thing - it was
easy to control.  I then decided to see how
it handled at a slightly higher speed.  After
picking out a nice open spot at the back of
a parking lot, I picked the apex for the 90
degree turn I was about to execute.  After
accelerating smoothly through 1st, I shifted
to second and stepped on it.  Instead of
feathering the throttle, I just stayed on
it to see if I could steer through it.  The
rear came around on me far more quickly than
expected.  I let of the gas and saved it from
spinning, but not before going through a couple
of oscillations back and forth with the tires
squealing.  I was basically out of control.

I know that I could not have caught that spin if
I'd been driving the car by remote control - no
matter how good the FF might be in a wheel.

Be that as it may, I think I am :)

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

I was very careful to make sure there was
nothing around to make contact with.  It
was nothing more than what happens at an
autocross event.

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html