Another reason and I don't know if anybody has touched on this on
I think most drivers would die from exhaustion if they put in half the
laps some of our more dedicated simmers do. Then again..if the sim could
simulate the physical stress of racing, then the simmers would be dropping
like flies...
finally the cost of running all those laps would probably mean ruin for
any team.
dave henrie
Uhm.. err.. ehh.. well I understand the theory about 'unlearning'
certain habits, but it takes quite some time to realize how a car
handles at high speed, if someone never did that it will take some
time to learn and understand how and -why- a car behaves in certain
situations.
If the driving model is close to real, then the question would be what
would be achieved faster: learning why and how a car behaves at high
speed, or unlearning certain habits and driving without certain
real-life inputs.
If I had to guess I'd say the latter is way more easy..
Andre
You need to define RIQ.
What 6 inputs are we talking about, and for that matter, what are the
other 4? Apologies if I have missed this somewhere.
I'd say it depends on too many variables to make this a useful
discussion. Everyone is different, learns differently, accepts/avoids
risk differently, etc. Take the example you gave in the other thread.
Some specimens of the professional driver brain get up to speed very
quickly, some never do. I think the same could be said of the
non-race driver brains. Some will "get it" readily, and some never
will.
Gerald
> Tom
Don't know if this link will be of interest, it was a comparison between
two leading touring car drivers here in Australia with GPL Demo.
http://www.hyperstimulator.com/home_units/tests/journo_lvi.html
Regards Phil.
In the early 1960's I was lucky enough to attend the pre-race parties
before the Watkins Glen F1 races. There was a slot car track set up in one
room. The drivers (yes many of the ones in GPL) were fiercely competitive
and I have to believe that after just a little practice they would be as
fast as any veteran slot car junkie. Moss in particular was fantastic, he
set the rheostat to full power and just tapped the brake button
(disconnected the power) at exactly the right places.
My take: Top level athletes (in any sport) can't be compared to ordinary
humans -- they have fantastic senses and reflexes and if they accept a
challenge (competition) it's time to get out of the way! It might take
them some time to learn a complex sim, but if they are willing to take the
time they will eventually do very well.
-- Doug Milliken
http://www.millikenresearch.com
Dave
My $.02:
I've raced karts very sporadically (some would say erratically!) and found the
transition to sims difficult because I don't get the "seat of the pants" feel.
That feel includes A LOT of sensory input, all over and throughout my head and
body. Racing is very visceral and best done by the body with as little
distraction from consciousness as possible. Thinking is too slow, but it has its
uses. (A smarter driver will win, "bodies" and reactions being equal.) Sim
racing doesn't give me nearly enough sensory input. It's too cerebral. GPL comes
closest to providing Tom's "6 out of 10" but I don't see how any sim with our
current level of technology (and my current level of income!) can provide some
of the feedback I find critical (and most enjoy) when I'm really racing.
So Tom's definition of " brain" is pretty important to the question, I think.
I think knowledge of vehicle dynamics and racecraft can help in sim racing.
Vehicle dynamics can be learned in a classroom, in one sense. But in another
very literal "sense" it has to be experienced.
I don't think anyone knows enough about the brain and learning to be able to
answer the question meaningfully.
Jim
> ********************************
> Gavel...
> I like that approach you are taking here.....but here's something you might
> consider that would alter your thinking just a bit:
> Let's take two brains.....call them "Brain-A" and "Brain-B"..........by
> using the term "brain"....I'm talking about the entire mechanism of all
> senses...and the processing of them by the brain....including the "learning"
> process.
> Now.....let's define their racing experience as follows:
> "Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car "at
> the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ
> (Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150.
> "Brain-B".....is a professional race driver's brain (let's say Tony
> Stewart's brain....whose background in various types of race cars is quite
> wide and diverse).....and it has never been in a racing simulator. It has
> an RIQ also of 150.
> Now let's put both brain's in our racing simulator for the first time (the
> same simulator and let's say this simulator does an excellent job of
> producing 6 out of the 10 inputs from a real race car....really well).
> Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which "brain"
> comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever
> driven on?
> I'd be interested to hear your ideas....and others.
> Tom
> PS: Think I'll post this again as a new post/thread....so we can see the
> comments from everyone separately.
We built one of these once (rear-steer). It was quite an experience to
figure out how to ride the damn thing!
I agree with your succint argument for who will be up to speed quicker in a
sim.
Stephen
> >"Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car
"at
> >the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ
> >(Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150.
> >"Brain-B".....is a professional race driver's brain (let's say Tony
> >Stewart's brain....whose background in various types of race cars is
quite
> >wide and diverse).....and it has never been in a racing simulator. It
has
> >an RIQ also of 150.
> >Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which "brain"
> >comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever
> >driven on?
> -obviously- driver B. I remember my first laps in GPL when I had
> hardly any knowledge about racing, sliding off the track at every
> corner. It wasn;t untill I got the basics of racing before I even
> could think of getting better laptimes.
Stephen
Now the one variable in all this is the concept of the Racing Intelligence
Quotient. I'm assuming that this measures some innate ability to race cars
fast. Since Tom states that this is equal in the two brains, Brain-A has no
advantage. However, if you postulate that there are in fact two different IQs
actually present - one a Sim Racing IQ (SRIQ)- some different set of innate
skills allowing you to perceive and interact with information presented on a
computer system (both visual and audio, but not including G-forces) and the
other the Racing IQ, you have a different story. Perhaps someone like Greger
Huttu has an SRIQ of 200 and an RIQ of 125 whereas Michael Schumacher might
have an RIQ of 200, but an SRIQ of 125. In that case, there probably is some
complex interaction between the two factors which would determine both how
quickly one could get up to speed on a sim, as well as the total potential to
drive that sim.
Dave Ewing
--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing
*****************************************************
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
> >Their final performance, again, will be identical.
> If that's the case, how do you account for the wide discrepancy of skill
levels
> between drivers in CURRENT sims? According to your reasoning, we should ALL
be
> as fast as Huttu, Wilke, etc...<g>
/Jens
Since a "sim" will never be EXACTLY like a real race car.....this would be
the expected outcome....even if the sim is 95% as good as a real race
car...you know?
TP
> > Doug.........you can define it any way you want. In this
"experiment"...I
> > simply set them both to 150...to eliminate that as a variable.
> > TP
> Well - if you're eliminating this variable then your questions stands as.
> A racing driver, and someone who's never driven a racing car load a
> realistic sim.
> What will define who's faster is how realistic the simulation is.
> If it's increadably realistic to the point of being un-discerable from
> reality - then B runs away with it and A will catch up later after making
up
> for lack experience.
> Their final performance will be identical.
> If it's the inverse of realism (consider the backwards bycycle for
> instance - someone who rides a bike will find this more difficult than
> someone who doesnt) - then brain B will suffer from experience contrary
to
> that of the sim and thus will take time to un-learn or re-learn the skills
> required - meanwhile, brain a being of identical talent - will run away
with
> it - only to be caught up by brain B later on
> Their final performance, again, will be identical.
> Doug
