rec.autos.simulators

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Gavel...

I like that approach you are taking here.....but here's something you might
consider that would alter your thinking just a bit:

Let's take two brains.....call them "Brain-A" and "Brain-B"..........by
using the term "brain"....I'm talking about the entire mechanism of all
senses...and the processing of them by the brain....including the "learning"
process.

Now.....let's define their racing experience as follows:

"Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car "at
the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator.  It has an RIQ
(Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150.

"Brain-B".....is a professional race driver's brain (let's say Tony
Stewart's brain....whose background in  various types of race cars is quite
wide and diverse).....and it has never been in a racing simulator.  It has
an RIQ also of 150.

Now let's put both brain's in our racing simulator for the first time (the
same simulator and let's say this simulator does an excellent job of
producing 6 out of the 10 inputs from a real race car....really well).

Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation:  Which "brain"
comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever
driven on?

I'd be interested to hear your ideas....and others.

Tom

PS:  Think I'll post this again as a new post/thread....so we can see the
comments from everyone separately.

What exactly is an RIQ and how can one have one without doing any R'ing of
any sort whatsover?

It's like saying

"I have a JIQ (japaneese intelligence quotient) of ten billion - but I've
never spoken a word of japanesse.  How well can I order food in a japanesse
nosh-shop."

Doug

Logic would probably tell us that "Brain-B" should come up to full race
speed before "Brain-A"......but let's say that it does not.  Let's say the
opposite actually happens in this little experiment.  Let's say
"Brain-A"....wins the "up to speed sooner" competition.  Would that
necessarily indicate that the simulator was not good at simulating racing?
Or....was their some other dynamic at play that we are not thinking about?

I would postulate that its possible that "Brain-A" wins this
competition....and that the "simulator" used **does** do a good job of
simulating a race car.......because "Brain-B" had to spend a lot of time
unlearning some of the inputs it was used to getting from a real race
car....before it could learn how to run the simulated race car
fast....properly interpreting those inputs....which were good....but 4 of
them were missing and even the good ones were only 95% as good as a real
race car environment.  Is this not one possible answer to what would be
observed as an illogical outcome of this competition?

Now...we are only talking above about "driving a race car fast"......let's
take this competition one step further.

Let's let "Brain-B" catch up to "Brain-A"......now they are both equally
fast in the simulator.  Now.....the next competition is:  "Which brain will
start winning actual races in the sim....before the other?"

I think it would be logical to conclude that "Brain-B"....now having
acquired the same skills as "Brain-A" in driving a race car fast....having
overcome initially the **handicap** of all that real race car driving
experience.......will win this competition hands down.  Why?  Because it has
all the "race craft" experience that Brain-A lacks.....and "Brain-B" wins
this "winning races" competition - hands down....every single time!  Its a
"no brainer".....lol......

If this little *experiment* above....is actually true in
real-life.......then this accounts quite reasonably for why we "observe" the
situation of real-world drivers apparently being "slower" than sim
drivers.....over all.  What we are doing.....in that case....is taking an
unfair sampling.  We are taking a snapshot of the situation ....at one point
in time....where the "real world driver" is simply lacking enough seat time
in the sim.....to be up to speed and equal with his sim-racing-only
experienced opponent.  Then....blaming a bad simulator for that observation.

I suggest this is what's really going on in the real world.  If I am right
about this....then as time moves forward.....and more real-world drivers
participate in sim racing......the "difference" in performance between the
two groups will narrow...eventually disappear altogether.

Only time will tell........and that's kind of what we are doing here at
Pabst-Racing.  We are "Bridging the Gap, between real-world racing and sim
racing." - as it says on our website.

Regards,

Tom

TP

-obviously- driver B. I remember my first laps in GPL when I had
hardly any knowledge about racing, sliding off the track at every
corner. It wasn;t untill I got the basics of racing before I even
could think of getting better laptimes.

Andre

"Andre Warringa"
  But I would think driver b would have to unlearn his realworld experiences
to fully grasp the simulator.  While driver A could begin assimilating the
nuances of the sim right away....

Tom

TP

The other guy may, because of a lack of the fear factor, kamikaze his way to
speed but that has more to do with arcadish behavior than  methodically and
safely bringing a car up to speed.
 Stewart should have more on the ball in interpreting visual cues than the
other guy. On the other hand, simulators have smaller wheels, less rate of
travel and require a much lighter touch than even a  simple automobile.
Hence, the qualifier of all things being equal.

Gavel

ONLY - if the simulator was innacurate.  If it were as good a simulation of
real racing as can be achieved - then brain B walks away with it - to be
caught up by brain A at a later time

Doug

Well - if you're eliminating this variable then your questions stands as.

A racing driver, and someone who's never driven a racing car  load a
realistic sim.

What will define who's faster is how realistic the simulation is.

If it's increadably realistic to the point of being un-discerable from
reality - then B runs away with it and A will catch up later after making up
for lack experience.

Their final performance will be identical.

If it's the inverse of realism (consider the backwards bycycle for
instance - someone who rides a bike will find this more difficult than
someone who doesnt)  - then brain B will suffer from experience contrary to
that of the sim and thus will take time to un-learn or re-learn the skills
required - meanwhile, brain a being of identical talent - will run away with
it - only to be caught up by brain B later on

Their final performance, again, will be identical.

Doug

They have spent years driving real cars with a real chance of killing
themselves.

Apart from that japanesse guy who died playing counterstrike - I dont think
anyones killed themselves playing a PC title.

The real driver will carry across the slight reservedness required to not
kill yourself - however a good sim racer doesnt care about killing his or
herself.

After time - of course - the gap between them will shrink.

Doug

--
Brian Tate
Communications Officer
CART Toyota Atlantic Championship
http://www.toyotaatlantic.com   http://www.cart.com

That was an excellent explantion and analysis!

/Jens

In fact, I would even say that you could apply the whole simracing issue
here to any change of motorsport.  Take Brain-B, F1 driver, and Brain-A who
never raced and put them on a Rallye car or a motorbike.  You would at
first, for a small period, have about the same results.  Well "results" is a
fair word, A would find the limit quite fast but erratically, while B
already knows the dangers of that same limit.  He knows you can't pass it,
so he would move progressively depending on how he adjusts.

[Adjusting], the key term of the day ;-)

But if you want to know for long term, well Brain-B wins by a far margin.
It's just that, racing is a complicated task that requires lots of skills
and lots of knowledge.  Really, if we all remember our first experiences in
racing (or driving), we marched a long road since then to gain our
experience.  Racing physics, awareness, the limit, setups, reacting to
stimulus, etc..  Brain B already has this, A would need lots and lots of
time to gain that experience that he is lacking.

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