rec.autos.simulators

by **Andy Bac** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

As disappointed as I am, I can understand the logic used. CART/IRL numbers
are just not appealing to any marketing person, while NASCAR continues to
climb. CART does great if you take into account the global marketplace, but
seems to be weakest in the US, for some unknown reason. And I doubt any
agreement between CART and the IRL will solve this in the short term.

So is there any way we can voice our displeasure to Papy? I've bought CART
(ICR2), N1, N2, N3 and GPL, so when I tell them I'd buy CART2 I think they can
count on that. GPL has some great attributes, but it still stinks in others
(graphics being #1) - even N3's pictures are cartoonish. I think a CART game
with some kick-ass graphics, plus the physics modelling of GPL (modified for
2K wings of course) would blow away the market. It wouldn't outsell the
NASCAR franchise, but I bet it would make money for them.

Should we put up a web petition, collecting some names, then forwarding it to
Papy? I don't want to whine (too late, I know), but I would like to show them
there's some definite interest.

This reminds me - there was an open-source racing engine being developed, but
I lost the URL. Can anyone update me on this?

Thanks.

> Guess we are doomed to endure ANOTHER nascar sim while Sierra won't even warm
> over ICR2 like they did for Nx several times. Once again the corp. suits abandon
> quality for mediocaty.

> I hope RatBag or Motorsims or some other small creative developer, who unlike
> Papy, are not shackled to a corporate giant, can pick up the ball and kick
> Sierra's flabby butt. My wallet is waiting.

> Marty

>> Some of us however wishes they'd get CART3 out the door before working on
>> NASCAR3 again(the current N3 should be NASCAR 2.5, but I digress)...

>> Moping in Ottawa...

>> Andy

Andy Backa
The only skills I have the patience to learn are those that have no real application in life.
- Calvin and Hobbes

Chewey Pages: http://www.racesimcentral.net/~chewey

by **Chris Wes** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Try these for size:
http://arch.comp.kyutech.ac.jp/~matsu/my_products/gracer/
http://members.xoom.com/rsproject/
http://www.logichip.com.au/racesim/
http://www.379.com/v8/

Chris

by **Shane Lowr** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

i think the xoom version of rsproject has died ... mine is still active at
www.logichip.com.au/racesim but it is down at the moment. It is hosted at
work and they took all the servers down in case of viruses set to detonate
at the turn over ...should be up in the next day or so as soon as i can find
someone to turn it on. <G>

always looking for people to help ... there 's a message board up for
discussions ... i havent done much work on that actual code as yet ... just
the input code ... most was done by Tiggs ... but no one has heard from him
for a while so i guess its become my baby. I have a few ideas of where i
want the project to go ... one of those is to have the thing modular so you
can put in CART or F1 or any tin top you care to plug into it ... the tracks
will be the same.

If anyone wants to lend a hand let me know via email and we can take it from
there.

Shane
db_wolf

by **johnjnelso** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

> As disappointed as I am, I can understand the logic used. CART/IRL numbers
> are just not appealing to any marketing person, while NASCAR continues to
> climb. CART does great if you take into account the global marketplace, but
> seems to be weakest in the US, for some unknown reason. And I doubt any
> agreement between CART and the IRL will solve this in the short term.

Would Papy maybe be better off considering world wide sales potential and developing a modern F1
sim with the GPL engine? I'd be happy with that if it's all we could get in terms of open wheel
racing. If that sold well in Europe and Australia, it might offset mediocre US sales.
Awwwww.....who am I kidding? I'm despairing that just when we get the computer processing and
software technology to develop a truly realistic and engrossing open wheel sim, the market falls
out for it and we're left with nothing of the potential we could have.
Sniff...

by **Steve Ferguso** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

: This just may be the only way we will ever get a 1st rate Cart sim. WSC
: is being done by just two brothers,and their benchmark is GPL. If it takes
: off,then just maybe they will do a Champ car sim next. Only I hope it
: doesn't take them 3 years to do.

: Joel Willstein

One wonders where they get the time to do the modelling of all the
tracks. Only one of the brothers does the graphics, so he must have a lot
of late nights.

Stephen

by **Andy Bac** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

> What do you base your assumption on that a top flight Cart sim would
> "blow the market way" and turn a profit for Sierra and their holding
> company? How many copies are you talking about ? GPL only sold 40K+ copies,
> and was a complete financial disaster.

OK - I think I should have clarified that. I didn't mean in terms of
total sales, I just meant that the potential is still there to come up with a
sim significantly better than anything else currently on the market, including
GPL. I realize GPL didn't sell well, probably due to the lack of a true F1
base in the US. This year's Indy F1 race will help, but there's a good number
of years until F1 will get any significant following. If CART can get itself
out of this marketing funk, then we could see another CART product in 3-5
years at the earliest (by my guestimate). The lack of a CART sim is the fault
of CART more than the game producers/publishers.

Yeah, I know. It just sucks, that's all. I would like to see the ICR2/CART
numbers though.

Yup. Agreed.

Andy Backa
The only skills I have the patience to learn are those that have no real application in life.
- Calvin and Hobbes

Chewey Pages: http://home.istar.ca/~chewey

by **Joel Willstei** » Thu, 06 Jan 2000 04:00:00

> OK - I think I should have clarified that. I didn't mean in terms of
> total sales, I just meant that the potential is still there to come up
with a
> sim significantly better than anything else currently on the market,
including
> GPL. I realize GPL didn't sell well, probably due to the lack of a true
F1
> base in the US. This year's Indy F1 race will help, but there's a good
number
> of years until F1 will get any significant following. If CART can get
itself
> out of this marketing funk, then we could see another CART product in 3-5
> years at the earliest (by my guestimate). The lack of a CART sim is the
fault
> of CART more than the game producers/publishers.

Here are the more popular reasons as to why GPL didn't sell well in any
market,just not the USA.
1-way to difficult for the average gamer. If you can't be competitive in
some mode right out of the box,then forget it.
2-era picked. Most casual fans have absolutely no idea who these drivers
were. And can't relate to those cars and physics.
3-the biggest learning curve ever required in a sim
4-no easy way to race F3 or F2 cars unless you knew about Alison Hines Eagle
Womans site.
5-Games are supposed to be fun. GPL has the highest fustration level known
to man. There is absolutely no fun is constantly crashing trying to make one
single lap.

There are still posts here on RAS just about everyday on why they
prefer some other racing sim to GPL. We're a very small minority in the auto
sim racing community that spent the time and effort to learn how to drive
these cars. Do you think that any more would be willing to put this effort
in to learning how to drive a Champ car? I don't think so. And the theory
that a Champ car would be easier to drive with all the downforce and
stickier tires doesn't hold water with me. Afterall, when we were racing
ICR2, all you ever read was how those cars felt like they were driving on
ice.

Joel Willstein

by **Andy Bac** » Thu, 06 Jan 2000 04:00:00

>> OK - I think I should have clarified that. I didn't mean in terms of
>> total sales, I just meant that the potential is still there to come up
>> with a sim significantly better than anything else currently on the market,
>> including GPL. I realize GPL didn't sell well, probably due to the lack of a true
>> F1 base in the US. This year's Indy F1 race will help, but there's a good
>> number of years until F1 will get any significant following. If CART can get
>> itself out of this marketing funk, then we could see another CART product in 3-5
>> years at the earliest (by my guestimate). The lack of a CART sim is the
>> fault of CART more than the game producers/publishers.

> Here are the more popular reasons as to why GPL didn't sell well in any
> market,just not the USA.
> 1-way to difficult for the average gamer. If you can't be competitive in
> some mode right out of the box,then forget it.

Yup.

Definitely. I'm willing to bet Nascar Legends will also suffer poorly.

Same as #1, but still valid.

But the rewards are huge once you get it, right? What other game(s) has that
kind of satisfaction level?

I agree with what you're saying, but keep in mind your #2 - it's easier to
keep interested in something that you can compare yourself to. Racing against
Ganassi's boys on the computer would be a hoot if you saw them on the tube an
hour earlier.

As for the learning curve - that's Papy's fault to some extent. If an
unofficial website is essential to understand how to do something (no
disrespect to Alison), then Papy screwed up. But to Papy's credit they never
claimed it was easy, either. So arcade and sim modes are needed - I would
think that's quite possible.

And the drivability - I'm willing to bet CART cars are easier to drive with
the extra downforce and grip. I can't claim to know that for a fact - I've
never driven either, but it does seem to make sense, even with the extra
speed. I never had the problems you mentioned in ICR2/CART though. Either
way, I don't think that'd hurt the appeal of the game any.

Anyway, I still think the problem lies with CART not marketing itself to the
point where there are many groups wanting CART licenses. If Papy makes money
solely on its NASCAR properties, then I understand their logic for abandoning
CART.

Andy Backa
The only skills I have the patience to learn are those that have no real application in life.
- Calvin and Hobbes

Chewey Pages: http://home.istar.ca/~chewey

by **R. G. Koehler Jr** » Fri, 07 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Very good response Joel!

I consider myself well above the average gamer and I never had the time
or was willing to invest the effort into being competitive GPL. I'm not
into running laps for 3-4 months just trying to stay on the track.

Most of simmers I know were very enthusiastic for GPL because of the era and
tracks that were included.

All they (Papy) had to (could still do so) do was allow us to adjust the
AI skill level. Make it possible to turn them down to where we could be
competitive right out of the box and adjust upwards, as in almost every
other sim Papy produces. That one thing would have sold tens of thousands
more copies. Heck, do it now and re-release it and you'll sell another 40K.

Not critical if AI were adjustable!

If AI were adjustable you could drive as slow as needed and still see the
back of the field at the finish. That's all I want. Don't mind finishing
last, but allow me to see the next to last car! Let me decide when to up
the skill level of the AI.

--
Rich Koehler
rgkoehler(at)lucent(dot)com
killerk(at)home(dot)com

by **Steve Ferguso** » Sat, 08 Jan 2000 04:00:00

:>

: Very good response Joel!

:> Here are the more popular reasons as to why GPL didn't sell well in any
:> market,just not the USA.
:> 1-way to difficult for the average gamer. If you can't be competitive in
:> some mode right out of the box,then forget it.

: I consider myself well above the average gamer and I never had the time
: or was willing to invest the effort into being competitive GPL. I'm not
: into running laps for 3-4 months just trying to stay on the track.

But I think this is exaggerated, and a similar response is often given. I
am an "average" simmer, never approached hot lap greatness, rarely ran
full races in other sims etc. However, using just a joystick, I could run
consisten laps at the Glen with the demo after about two days. When I
bought the full version, It only ever took about two days of practice to
be able to race against the AI at any track and finish in the top
ten. This is just my experience, of course, but I never found that one
needed "3-4 months" to stay on the track. Now, to actually win a
race... that is another matter.

i agree that GPl should have had a slider for difficulty, but in the end,
the challenge of the game makes it last on my HD. Even dicing for 8th
place is fun with this sim, whereas running away from the AI, which almost
anyone can do after some time with other sims, gets a bit dull.

Stephen

rec.autos.simulators

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