Sorry, David, this is the whole point you're missing.

The reason why I (and I believe many others) like playing GPL rather than
the other computer racing games around is precisely because there is far
more involved in learning the game, which makes it feel much more like a
sport.

Golf is quite a good analogy, as it doesn't really involve much in the way
of physical exercise either: just a lot of hand-eye coordination,
concentration, practice, etc. etc.

Whether or not it's easier to post the fastest times in GPL or some other
game is not really the point: it's the process of getting there that
provides the fun - GPL just provides more of it (IMO) than the other games.

It may be harder to start with, but just as with golf, that only makes it
more satisfying when you start to improve.

Having read quite a few of your posts, I can't help feeling that you have
got it in for GPL because it's the one game you haven't managed to get near
the top of the leaderboard in.

You don't have to keep trying to justify yourself: we all have our own
interests, and we don't think any less of you because you didn't manage to
master GPL (honest!).

You have to bear in mind that with most games the average player doesn't
practice anywhere near as much as a GPLr, as they tend to get bored and move
on.  There may not be as many people out there playing GPL, but they tend to
work harder at it, and in consequence the standard is higher.  I would also
suspect that it tends to attract the sort of people who would be good at
racing games in general.

Well there's your difference right there. I don't place myself above "the
average NASCAR fan".

Thank you, I learned from the best. ;-)

Seriously, how can you possibly approach a form of entertainment
logically? -If you're not moved by it to beyond mere logic, it's not
entertainment by
definition!!

That's like stepping and freezeframing through a movie to spot editing or
continuity mistakes instead of experiencing the characters and the plot.

So simracers who prefer GPL/N4 are fanatics? -Other way around, actually.
Simracers who, in the face of the two best simracing games of our time still
prefer another are fanatics! ;-))

Oh come on, using a tongue in cheek quote to support your argument?

If I lived in the US, I might actually get to see some NASCAR (sporadic
coverage here). Anyway, I don't think NASCAR is anywhere as staged and fake
as WWF. The only (if any) similarity I can see is that both are fan-friendly
organisations, especially towards "average" people and kids. Unlike F1,
which
is a much more exclusive affair in that respect.

From the hotlapping perspective, perhaps. More on that later.

Might be true for those who're heavily into Nx... ok, I'll agree to that.

Perhaps from a hotlapping perspective. Again, more later.

Not completely true... there is that, but neither will stop the driver from
trying to get the most out of the car/track combination. The approach is
different as no-one can afford to crash countless times in the pursuit of
speed, but it's not fear nor finance which prevent fast times in the end.
Ability, setup and equipment do (ok, the money will help/impeed the last
part of that threesome).

<sound of penny dropping> Ah I see, another graduate of the Ian Lake school
of simracing thought. I prefer to call this hotlapping, but that is a topic
for discussion in it's own right. I'm not going there as I've covered this
extensively with mr. Lake in the past (though not on this forum) and in the
end had to agree to disagree. The basic premise of what is considered
simracing is different and so is the appreciation of what challenge in a
simracing game consists of.

It's no use me arguing GPL is more challenging than other simracing games
and you claiming challenge is constant across multiple games as we're not
measuring with the same yardstick. In fact our expectations and experience
of respective sims are so vastly different we might as well be in alternate
realities.

I know it isn't, that's not the point. I've never said driving the cars in
GPL is not disproportionally hard. Then again, seeing as we do have the
advantage of invulnerability and unlimited budget, making it "as easy as it
should be" (cars should be at least a second quicker "in-line" IMO) might
spoil the magic of the game, as (through limitations of it's physics model,
again: IMO) it allows the player to get away with overdriving the car quite
badly. Having it "as it is" allows the player only to be competitive when
dangerously flirting with the limit, thus providing lasting appeal for the
game. In my opinion, of course.

Not to mention having to use one's eyes and ears to know what the car is
doing instead of just "feeling" it in the simworld and therefore not having
enough "computing power" available to analyse and plan ahead as you drive.
As apposed to real life, where one can "think one's feet" more.

Neil said it better than I could hope to do, so I'll refer to his reply. I
distance myself from his "chip on shoulder" comment, though, as this (in my
experience) not necessarily the case.

Have to admit I'm not an attentive reader, like I said before, never noticed
anything by your pen on my visits to said sites otherwise it might have had
some sense of deja vu. Or maybe not.

Perhaps emotion is easier to understand and relate to than logic applied to
a subjective experience? -I only gained some understanding from this lastest
message.

Jan.
=---

Nice try.

Fasn of GPL are older. It takes them longer to become good at racing games.
A typical GPL fan will talk and talk, and analyze and analyze, and practice
and practice to be able to post a specific time. A 14 year old will just do
it.

The standard is no higher except in their own minds. Insecurity seems to be
the culprit.

David G Fisher

I discussed this with Ian long ago. If I remember correctly, he felt that
hotlapping was a good measurement of how well a person could race online.
With the abilities of most online sim racers what they are, he's probably
right. A very good hotlapper will win most races.

As I said before, I actually don't like hotlapping at all. It has to be done
though in order to check setups. I prefer racing, and as I said in my other
post, have done very well in the tourneys I entered, and the hundreds of
online races I've had. Regardless of the game, the challenge of pushing the
vehicle to it's limit (hotlapping or racing), and the level(s) of
competition were always basically the same. To prove this, pick up an arcade
racer (like MTM2), find the fastest known times, and try to beat them. Race
the best known drivers online.

David G Fisher

All racing games are equal, but some racing games are more equal than
others.  :)

More seriously, all bat/ball games are just about co-ordinating the
swing of the bat in the best way possible to hit the ball.  Therefore,
if you're good at one bat/ball game you should be good at them all,
right?  The mechanics are the same.

Indeed racing is about steering, throttle, brake, picking the correct
line, etc but surely what works in one game won't necessarily work in
another.  There's a whole myriad of combinations of all those things
that make no 2 games play the same.  However, as in bat/ball games the
grounding is the same and yet, in order to get good at each game, you
will have to play it at length in order to discover its subtleties.

All racing games have subtleties, but some racing games have more
subtleties than others.  :)

<snip>

Both the statements by you and Neil may be true.  Who knows?  Has there
been a study?

I doubt there is really much difference between an older racer and a 14
year old when it comes to practicing to become good.  The difference is
that the older you are the more likely you will ALSO want to discuss
with others, whereas a 14 year will just get on with learning and
perhaps casual chat with his/her mates.  It is unlikely a 14 year old is
going to feel confident enough to discuss at detail the ins and outs of
a particular racing game with those older than themselves - the like of
which you see here - and that is why you don't hear from them.  It
doesn't mean that they aren't thinking about it as much.

I would accept that the standard is unlikely to be higher.
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -17.06