rec.autos.simulators

I guarantee that anyone could do a lap in one of the real cars, the reason
being that they wouldn't try to do 180mph into Curva Grande on their first
lap - if people were brave enough to do it at 80mph I'd be shocked. So too
in GPL - anyone can drive a slow lap, but there's no point in hotlapping
first time out the garage. <<

What I mean is that in the real world people wouldn't try to do 180mph
cause they'd have enough feel to suggest to them they're over their or the
cars' limit. The sim doesn't suggest a limit to me. I get to know the
corners largely from experience, from falling off twenty times :-), and not
so much from inherent car feel. Even when driving a real car on totally
unknown roads one doesn't generally fall off.

I've wondered what it is about the real world that lets a driver know
they're pushing too hard. I think to a large extent its the feeling of
roll. Sliding etc too of course but I think that roll is a major factor.
Unfortunately this is one thing that sims can't recreate on the glass
screen. GPL does roll visually, about the only sim that does I believe, but
still its a far cry from the real feeling.

Some sims try to compensate for the lack of real world feedback by
exaggerating the sound effects as one approaches the limit. I think this is
a worthwhile thing to do. At least its something to go by. Given the
obvious great efforts and skill that have gone into GPL I have to suppose
that its just not viable to get a true car feel into PC games.  If it was
then I think that Papy would have done it. Not without a fully gimbaled
reactive player seat at least. ( Wouldn't that be fun ).

Perhaps I was hoping that with the new levels of track detail, camber
banking etc, new levels of car physics, power slides with throttle
controlled steering etc, and new level of graphics, there might also be a
new heightened level of driver feel. But perhaps this latter thing is just
an inherent impossibility for the current medium. This may be what force
feedback controls are trying to address although from the ones I've tried I
have to say they're still more just a gimmick than a serious device.

I wonder if a roll-meter would be useful. Yes I know its completely
artificial and no real car has one. But I think of the makers of thinks
like golf sims. You simply cannot duplicate the nuances of a golf swing on
a PC game. So they decided to replace the usual skill of a true golf swing
by the skill of computer mouse control, and worked out a dial thing as a
focus for same. Sounds like it'd be a joke but it actually works
extraordinarily well. I've even heard a golfer say that he learnt a few
things about golf from PC golf games. So yes a roll-mete, whether its a set
of LED type lights or a dial mete or whatever, would be completely unreal
but it just might be the needed thing and might just "work".

practice like hell, understand the car, and practice some more. When
entering Ascari or Curva Grande, I know when I hit the apex just how close
I'm going to be to the exit kerb, and can correct accordingly. Out of Lesmo
2 you can feel how much the wheels are spinning and anticipate how much
opposite lock is required to catch the car even before it is sliding - like
I say, it's all there, you just have to learn to speak the language.
Blaming the crashes on "lack of driver feedback" is pretty simplistic IMO,
especially when what is simulated is something with hugely different power,
weight, grip and downforce characteristics than previously experienced. <<

You may be right and as I said, although the demo has been out quite a
while I've only just been able to play it after a recent Intel CPU upgrade.
It may well be that in my current inexperience with this sim, and/or my
preconditioning on how other sims "feel" I'm missing subtle nuances that
are there. I'm can do about 1m36s at Monza which I know is way off the pace
of the fast guys so obviously I've a way to go with this one. ( Mind you,
no matter what the sim, I'm always a few seconds behind that fast guys.
I've come to accept this as simply where my car sim abilities bubbles to
:-(

Best Regards

Phillip McNelley

Cheers!
John

Well this is now a different discussion. Originally the assertion was
that GPL was deficient in this department compared to other sims, but
the above talks about deficiency compared to what would be expected
given the quality of the other components of the sim.

Personally I think that is the difference, since for me feedback is
there in buckets. Even over the jumps at the Nurburgring you can
anticipate the car's response before it lands, and the movements of
the car when it lands instantaneously confirm it. I'll be interested
to see how you get on once you've had more time in the sim, and
especially once you've tried the full version.

Cheers!
John

Thanks Richard,  this seems to sum up part of the reason some people have a
preference over the other. (Although Bart Westra may have thrown in some doubt)

Thinking about it some more, it seems (to me) that GC concentrates more on how
to present tyre load and traction,  DK concentrates more on weight distribution
and g-forces. And I'm not talking about the physics modelling but the driver
feedback.

Out on the limb yet again.. I'm wondering if people who have better spatial
awareness have a better time in Papy sims? And those with tactile sensitivity
are better with GP2?

We know that people have different favourite colours, why that is I don't know,
but there would have to be a logical reason for it - and I'm sure that there is
a more accurate reason in this case. (why some think GPL feedback is the best
and others think its not as good).

This time I expect someone will tell me that I'm over complicating things and
there is a perfectly simple explanation.. :)

Its important to me because I'd like to see more people have the opportunity to
enjoy different sims more equally.. (particularly since GC takes 4yrs between
each advancement)

Sounds pretty good to me..

hahah but your 10hrs behind us :-)

No two sims are the same and all take some time to adapt, but there's got to be
a reason(s) why we end up having more laps in one than the other. The easiest
answer is because we are better in one. But why is it so? (as Professor Julius
would say)

I'm not very good at GPL, ( low 1.4X's in GP1 car) but the challenge  of
getting in the 1:30's  keeps me hooked ! Every time I think I'm going to go
in the 1.30's.... I crash !

BTW, moving the Pitboard where it shows the last lap after I cross the
finish line in essential !

Tim Deatherage

"Admitted Sim ***"

No two sims are the same and all take some time to adapt, but there's got to
be a reason(s) why we end up having more laps in one than the other. The
easiest answer is because we are better in one.
But why is it so?

Yep, thats an excellent tip - thanks Richard!

There's no going back :-)

Well maybe. But in my defense I do point out that while I may be wrong,
speaking before I have enough experience with the product, or just plain
off the wall, I do try to explain at length why I have the opinions I have.
These thoughts aren't meant to be deliberately  provocative or
flame-baiting, or insulting or anything else. They are really just thoughts
I genuinely have and about which I'm interested to hear others' thoughts.
Seems to me that that's a valid use of a newsgroup.

I re-read one of my former posts and yes I agree that the tone on
reflection is much hasher than is warranted. Its one of those cases where
as you write you think you're just stating some perceptions as you see them
but then when re-read some time later you realize you words connote a much
more negative feel than you intended. My apologies to all and to the GPL
people.

Perhaps this is what is needed. A generic wife's voice superimposed over
the other sounds that alerts one to imminent dangers. A bit like the
NASCAR2 spotter. But then that would spoil the ability to lose ones self in
the fantasy. :-)

Interesting to hear you real life experiences on the matter.

sudden you find yourself in a roller skate on bias ply tires. ... In spite
of all this, you insist on pounding *** on your first few laps. <<

Certainly the transition requires a learning curve.

I gather that the final release will have a number of things tweaked from
the demo. Papy is a contender for the best car sim producer crown. GPL to
date confirms this. The release version I would have to suspect  would
further confirm the point. GPL is a landmark product in just about every
department without doubt.

It still seems to me though that even as every other facet of these types
of sims are advanced, the feel of driving a car remains a bit static, as if
the natural limits of the glass screen are too prevailing. But that's just
my feeling and I stand to be enlightened by others like yourself who have
some real world experience in the matter. If fact I've found it somewhat
enlightening to hear such thoughts from yourself and others.

My own real world experience amounts to driving a street car for 24 years (
 I'm 41 ). Some of this time was spent as a taxi driver so perhaps I can
claim to know what driving at the limit is after all, all-be-it a different
kind of limit, through peak hour traffic while someone is urging you to get
them to the airport as fast as possible. Maybe the next great sim project
could be a taxi driver sim where one has to make a living, appease
passengers, and tackle traffic and road rage. Maybe my background will give
me an edge there. I've also occasionally hired a go-cart for some fun at a
public go-cart tracks. ( The sort or carts you hire aren't anything to
write home about unfortunately. Very underpowered ). I'm also a qualified
motor mecahanic for what its worth.

Cheers

Phillip McNelley

that GPL was deficient in this department compared to other sims, but the
above talks about deficiency compared to what would be expected given the
quality of the other components of the sim. <<

Yes. Due to my sloopy and short use of langage in the former post. But this
later concept is what I mean. Sorry.

In any case the chance of me not buying GPL as soon as its out is about the
same as Frank Williams calling me up to offer me the vacant Williams seat.

Bye ( The phones ringing :-)

Phillip McNelley

It may be that at a particular point of throttle application you are
breaking the rears loose and sliding the back end round - that would
make you point into the corner more. Also, depending upon the diff
settings and relative grip of the rear wheels, you may be getting some
turning effect from there.

I'd guess you would notice the above two "driving" features, and are
looking for something "notchy" about the control. I've certainly never
seen anything like that in the latest versions (nor any beforehand
either for that matter).

Cheers!
John

The way I think this works is something like this: the contact patch
of the tyre is being deflected considerably to one side due to the
friction force acting on the soft sidewall. But of course, the tyre
is rotating, and the tread on the front side of the tyre as it is
coming down to meet the road is in a centered position due to no
lateral force acting on the tyre which isn't on the road. So, as
the tyre is rotating it is constantly replacing the deflected part
of the tyre with "new" tyre which is not deflected at all, if you
get what i'm trying to say. This is why the car has such wallowy
behaviour in turns and has such a high slip angle around corners,
you really have to turn the car in a lot to make up for the tyre
rotation replacing the deflected tyre contact patch. I suspect
that this phenomenon is properly called Tyre Relaxation.
And I think that's why as you apply more power, the rear wheels
start trying to rotate a little faster, and thus they are "relaxing"
at a faster rate to the front wheels, and thus the rear starts
stepping out very slightly, even though they are still not slipping
any more than they were.

But modern racing tyres have very much reduced sidewall deflection
properties, so this whole effect becomes correspondingly smaller,
to the point that riding this power oversteer region becomes a knife
edged affair between hard cornering and just getting right out of
shape to the point where you lose a big chunk of speed and time or
spin completely. which is probably why you don't see modern F1 cars
doing it.

Road cars usually have pretty ***tyres with lots of sidewall flex,
like my mother's Holden Barina. First time i drove it i was like
"yuck! this car's all over the place!" due to this effect, but
with a bit of driving you get used to it, just like we got used
to it in GPL. I'd say you got used to it pretty damn well, since
you're in the top 10 at Monza at the Apex. :) Personally I really
love the feel of the GPL cars as they're right in this zone of
*** the rear out for corner exiting.

Hopefully this helped out a bit - assuming that what i am talking
about is correct, of course:)

Cheerio,
Grant.

Also the rate of change in front to rear balance is greater in a lower
gear due to the increased torque at the rear wheels. Thus the ease of
spinning out in lower gears and the ability to really hammer the gas in
high gears without loosing the back end.

It's testimony to GPL that these vehicle dynamics are more realistic and
pronounced than in any other sim to date. I can hardly wait for the
final release.

Marty