rec.autos.simulators

by **Haqsa** » Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:49:31

Nice theory except I get a higher frame rate with the exterior views
than I do with the***pit view. The***pit view is always going to be
a compromise due to the size and aspect ratio of typical monitors. For
example, NASCAR Heat appears to use a wider FOV than N4 or NR2002, which
might sound good except I find it harder to see my braking and turn in
points coming up, because distant objects shrink in size so rapidly.
F1CS2K had a relatively narrow and somewhat more realistic FOV, which
only made it harder to see the apex. Move the view up too high and the
roofline starts to interfere with the view of the road, too low and you
lose sight of the road going over hills. The NR2002 FOV is a reasonable
compromise, but I admit I would like the eye point to be just a tad
higher.

> I sat in Labonte's car at Sears last year (during April testing)....I
could
> see 70% of the hood just fine. The Papy FOV in N2002 is not even
close to
> correct. I suspect they do it like they do....because it narrows the
amount
> of "rendered" track to less than 1/4 of the screen....allowing for a
lower
> "minimum specs" computer listing...which sells "boxes." That's only a
> guess.

> I was going to sit in Little E's seat too....but he wouldn't get out
of
> it....and I wasn't going to sit on his lap. ....lol.....

> Tom

> > "SimRacer" >
> > > This should show up soon Tom, I used the translucent (sp?) info
boxes in
> > N4
> > > and really liked them. I would like to see Papy move away from the
> > > "Earnhardt" seat position though, I think it is too low in the car
> (can't
> > > see any hood until a wreck) and IMHO is too far to the center.
Almost
> like
> > a
> > > lowered "tv in-car cam" view really.
> > Check out the pre-race interviews when they talk to some of the
drivers
> > who are already strapped in....You will notice their chins BARELY
clear
> the
> > door...I don't think anybody 'cept may 6'4" Buddy Baker could see
the hood
> > sitting in one of those...
> > dave henrie

by **Haqsa** » Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:53:04

Which brings up a good point - if a driver can have his seat height
adjusted to fit his preference, why can't we?

> Hi Tom,

> now that is a bit of a daring comment :-)

> I assume the actual vertical position of a drivers head depends on the
> drivers preference and how tall he is. The fact that in Labonte's car
_you_
> could see the hood doesn't mean _he_ could - or any of the other
drivers.
> Unless they are as tall as you are or taller. I sincerely doubt all
Nascar
> drivers prefer or use the same seat height, or rather, head position.

> Papy's seat position is as good as any other, unless someone proves
that all
> Nascar driver seats have the same height, and all Nascar drivers are
equally
> tall :-)

> Achim

> > I sat in Labonte's car at Sears last year (during April
testing)....I
> could
> > see 70% of the hood just fine. The Papy FOV in N2002 is not even
close to
> > correct. I suspect they do it like they do....because it narrows
the
> amount
> > of "rendered" track to less than 1/4 of the screen....allowing for a
lower
> > "minimum specs" computer listing...which sells "boxes." That's only
a
> > guess.

by **Joachim Trens** » Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:48:15

indeed :-)

Achim

> Which brings up a good point - if a driver can have his seat height
> adjusted to fit his preference, why can't we?

> > Hi Tom,

> > now that is a bit of a daring comment :-)

> > I assume the actual vertical position of a drivers head depends on the
> > drivers preference and how tall he is. The fact that in Labonte's car
> _you_
> > could see the hood doesn't mean _he_ could - or any of the other
> drivers.
> > Unless they are as tall as you are or taller. I sincerely doubt all
> Nascar
> > drivers prefer or use the same seat height, or rather, head position.

> > Papy's seat position is as good as any other, unless someone proves
> that all
> > Nascar driver seats have the same height, and all Nascar drivers are
> equally
> > tall :-)

> > Achim

> > > I sat in Labonte's car at Sears last year (during April
> testing)....I
> > could
> > > see 70% of the hood just fine. The Papy FOV in N2002 is not even
> close to
> > > correct. I suspect they do it like they do....because it narrows
> the
> > amount
> > > of "rendered" track to less than 1/4 of the screen....allowing for a
> lower
> > > "minimum specs" computer listing...which sells "boxes." That's only
> a
> > > guess.

by **ymenar** » Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:05:28

> Which brings up a good point - if a driver can have his seat height
> adjusted to fit his preference, why can't we?

Because the virtual***pit isn't really sitting there inside the game
engine. Well it is, but at the same time it isn't. Notice that nobody ever
enhanced the 3d modelling of the***pit in N4, after a full year yet we had
full of stuff for previous sims, or GPL.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **ymenar** » Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:08:46

> Yep, mirror really kills the frame rate, but you can't race without it.

It's a shame they are not really scalable. Just look at GPL and the # of
items you can take out of the mirrors. I could easily get 4-5 fps just by
taking out stuff in the mirror I don't care about to render. Why do they
force us to render the grass or asphalt texture in the mirror? It makes no
sense. And even more (I whined a lot about this in N4), you can only see
your own smoke if you toggle the mirror a second time, so that it renders
everything. It makes no sense, it's sometimes difficult when you hear
yourself screeching the tyres to know if you smoke them or not. It's very
important on road courses.

I guess they won't fix it, like the 100 other things that aren't fixed (ex:
can't tweak graphics in the replay theatre, etc...)

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Haqsa** » Mon, 25 Feb 2002 01:37:36

What I was trying to say was that Papy should have built in a way for us
to adjust it over a limited range, a range that would match what a real
driver would use. By allowing adjustment people would be able to find a
view that they liked, but by limiting it to a realistic range it would
still be fair and realistic.

It does seem odd though that I was able to find replacements for all of
the other camera views in N4 except the***pit view. I guess that's
what you are referring to, it apparently isn't done the same way as the
other views.

by **Biz** » Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:41:34

Considering the***pit view is a bmp with sections that allow the real time views through certain
sections that would be kind of tough don't you think? Did you ever try modifying a***pit based on
the any of the nascar sims to use it for a mod like tptcc for N3?

--
Biz

"Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand
alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and
the....." - Ash

> What I was trying to say was that Papy should have built in a way for us
> to adjust it over a limited range, a range that would match what a real
> driver would use. By allowing adjustment people would be able to find a
> view that they liked, but by limiting it to a realistic range it would
> still be fair and realistic.

> It does seem odd though that I was able to find replacements for all of
> the other camera views in N4 except the***pit view. I guess that's
> what you are referring to, it apparently isn't done the same way as the
> other views.

> > Because the virtual***pit isn't really sitting there inside the game
> > engine. Well it is, but at the same time it isn't. Notice that
> nobody ever
> > enhanced the 3d modelling of the***pit in N4, after a full year yet
> we had
> > full of stuff for previous sims, or GPL.

by **Haqsa** » Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:49:08

The***pit view is a 3d model as far as I can tell. I'm talking about
NR2002 here, not SCGT. ;o)

real time views through certain
try modifying a***pit based on

> the any of the nascar sims to use it for a mod like tptcc for N3?

> --
> Biz

> "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand
> alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular
structures,....and
> the....." - Ash

> > What I was trying to say was that Papy should have built in a way
for us
> > to adjust it over a limited range, a range that would match what a
real
> > driver would use. By allowing adjustment people would be able to
find a
> > view that they liked, but by limiting it to a realistic range it
would
> > still be fair and realistic.

> > It does seem odd though that I was able to find replacements for all
of
> > the other camera views in N4 except the***pit view. I guess
that's
> > what you are referring to, it apparently isn't done the same way as
the
> > other views.

> > > Because the virtual***pit isn't really sitting there inside the
game
> > > engine. Well it is, but at the same time it isn't. Notice that
> > nobody ever
> > > enhanced the 3d modelling of the***pit in N4, after a full year
yet
> > we had
> > > full of stuff for previous sims, or GPL.

by **Biz** » Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:22:48

Maybe its been changed since N3 but I didn't think so....my bad if it has been.
--
Biz

"Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand
alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and
the....." - Ash

> The***pit view is a 3d model as far as I can tell. I'm talking about
> NR2002 here, not SCGT. ;o)

> > Considering the***pit view is a bmp with sections that allow the
> real time views through certain
> > sections that would be kind of tough don't you think? Did you ever
> try modifying a***pit based on
> > the any of the nascar sims to use it for a mod like tptcc for N3?

> > --
> > Biz

> > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand
> > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular
> structures,....and
> > the....." - Ash

> > > What I was trying to say was that Papy should have built in a way
> for us
> > > to adjust it over a limited range, a range that would match what a
> real
> > > driver would use. By allowing adjustment people would be able to
> find a
> > > view that they liked, but by limiting it to a realistic range it
> would
> > > still be fair and realistic.

> > > It does seem odd though that I was able to find replacements for all
> of
> > > the other camera views in N4 except the***pit view. I guess
> that's
> > > what you are referring to, it apparently isn't done the same way as
> the
> > > other views.

> > > > Because the virtual***pit isn't really sitting there inside the
> game
> > > > engine. Well it is, but at the same time it isn't. Notice that
> > > nobody ever
> > > > enhanced the 3d modelling of the***pit in N4, after a full year
> yet
> > > we had
> > > > full of stuff for previous sims, or GPL.

by **lane** » Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:20:53

It's been 3D since N4.

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:14:32

Agreed.

TP

> >I sat in Michael Waltrips car and could see the hood very easily as
well...

> >- David

> Everybody has a different size and sitting position, so for everyone
> the view is different in real life.. would be nice to be able to set
> your own view..

> Andre

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:21:59

Joachim....

Actually....it wasn't a daring statement at all. Your seat position...head
position....is not altered dramatically by your height...and even a
difference of five or six inches in height...only translates to seeing more
or less, about a quarter inch of the hood area....its not dramatic. In
other words....if I sat in Labonte's car and slouched down six inches....I'd
lose about a quarter inch of the hood.....and if I stretched up....I'd gain
about a quarter inch view of the hood.......as seen from just sitting at my
normal head height. The "FOV" out of the real cars tend to be affected more
by the distance back from the dash board....than the height of the seat
which is extremely limited in all NASCAR race cars....there's just not that
much room for difference in head height. I will bet you (and this is only
speculation)....that if you measured every single WC driver's head
height....from the side view of the car...and measured off the ground.....it
wouldn't vary by more than a couple three inches at most (assuming all cars
at the same ride height....of course). The taller drivers have their seats
mounted near the floor pan....the shorter drivers have them elevated more
off the floor pan than the tall drivers. You see what I mean?

Tom

> Hi Tom,

> now that is a bit of a daring comment :-)

> I assume the actual vertical position of a drivers head depends on the
> drivers preference and how tall he is. The fact that in Labonte's car
_you_
> could see the hood doesn't mean _he_ could - or any of the other drivers.
> Unless they are as tall as you are or taller. I sincerely doubt all Nascar
> drivers prefer or use the same seat height, or rather, head position.

> Papy's seat position is as good as any other, unless someone proves that
all
> Nascar driver seats have the same height, and all Nascar drivers are
equally
> tall :-)

> Achim

> > I sat in Labonte's car at Sears last year (during April testing)....I
> could
> > see 70% of the hood just fine. The Papy FOV in N2002 is not even close
to
> > correct. I suspect they do it like they do....because it narrows the
> amount
> > of "rendered" track to less than 1/4 of the screen....allowing for a
lower
> > "minimum specs" computer listing...which sells "boxes." That's only a
> > guess.

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:23:22

I think for some reason...this maybe an old throw-back to the NROS days when
Papy considered changing the driving FOV something akin to "cheating." Not
totally sure.....but it very well could be.

Tom

> Which brings up a good point - if a driver can have his seat height
> adjusted to fit his preference, why can't we?

> > Hi Tom,

> > now that is a bit of a daring comment :-)

> > I assume the actual vertical position of a drivers head depends on the
> > drivers preference and how tall he is. The fact that in Labonte's car
> _you_
> > could see the hood doesn't mean _he_ could - or any of the other
> drivers.
> > Unless they are as tall as you are or taller. I sincerely doubt all
> Nascar
> > drivers prefer or use the same seat height, or rather, head position.

> > Papy's seat position is as good as any other, unless someone proves
> that all
> > Nascar driver seats have the same height, and all Nascar drivers are
> equally
> > tall :-)

> > Achim

> > > I sat in Labonte's car at Sears last year (during April
> testing)....I
> > could
> > > see 70% of the hood just fine. The Papy FOV in N2002 is not even
> close to
> > > correct. I suspect they do it like they do....because it narrows
> the
> > amount
> > > of "rendered" track to less than 1/4 of the screen....allowing for a
> lower
> > > "minimum specs" computer listing...which sells "boxes." That's only
> a
> > > guess.

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:27:04

Francois...

Are you saying that the "cockpit" is really kind of a "fixed" reference
point...and the "game engine or physics engine" moves on the screen
represented by the windshield opening........while the***pit is actually
static (except the zoom up or down of the***pit under
braking/accelerating)? Just wanting to make sure I understand you.

Tom

> > Which brings up a good point - if a driver can have his seat height
> > adjusted to fit his preference, why can't we?

> Because the virtual***pit isn't really sitting there inside the game
> engine. Well it is, but at the same time it isn't. Notice that nobody
ever
> enhanced the 3d modelling of the***pit in N4, after a full year yet we
had
> full of stuff for previous sims, or GPL.

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
> Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Goy Larse** » Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:27:50

> Francois...

> Are you saying that the "cockpit" is really kind of a "fixed" reference
> point...and the "game engine or physics engine" moves on the screen
> represented by the windshield opening........while the***pit is actually
> static (except the zoom up or down of the***pit under
> braking/accelerating)? Just wanting to make sure I understand you.

Nobody really understands Frank, he lives in a different world...:-)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"The Pits" http://www.racesimcentral.net/

"Animation isn't the illusion of life; it is life"
--Chuck Jones (1912-2002)--

rec.autos.simulators

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