rec.autos.simulators

by **Rory S. Brow** » Sat, 15 Jun 2002 00:17:48

On 6/13/02 5:24 AM, in article

> Rory,

>> If you read the article carefully and completely;

> I did, this time as well as when it first came out in 2000

>> you will read that what
>> needs to be changed to make FF work properly hasn't been changed yet
>> therefore it is still valid today. Afterall there still is no simulation
>> software as good as GPL and look how old that is.

> But surely you could update it, even if it was to say that FFB is still not
> at the stage where Hyperstim would implement it, especially so if you are
> going to have a poll about it. I just found it odd that you would have a
> poll in 2002 and make coy comments in the NG that there was something
> happening with regard to this. Your comments here lead me to believe that
> something was up with FFB and Hyperstim, until I read the old article.Not
> bashing you or Hyperstim (yes I have tried one) as I said I just found it
> odd.

> --
> Edward
> Commissioner
> MARA Middle-Aged Racers Association

Edward,

The Poll in the Forum on the www.hyperstimcanada.com web site is my idea to
respond to the queries that I get about FF. Nothing else should be or was
meant to be implied. I know there are those out there that really like FF
and I want to know if not having FF really has stopped someone from
purchasing a Hyper. If there was enough serious people who would purchase a
Hyper only if it had FF than I believe Hyper would have a serious look into
FF. I've never had someone say to me that I would only buy the Hyper if it
had FF. So far there has not been a serious response to the Poll. Some
people have said yes but they haven't left there name with a post confirming
they were seriously enough so it is hard to take seriously.

I do appreciate your comments, Edward. I hope you participate in the Hyper
Forum.

Rory S. Brown
Canadian Hyper Stimulator Distributor

by **Gerry Aitke** » Sat, 15 Jun 2002 00:50:54

> Edward,

> If you read the article carefully and completely; you will read that what
> needs to be changed to make FF work properly hasn't been changed yet
> therefore it is still valid today. Afterall there still is no simulation
> software as good as GPL and look how old that is.

Roy -- If I ever buy a Hyperstim it will be for GLP/n2002. But there's
no chance whatsoever that I'll ever drive GPL/2002 without FF.

Gerry

by **Eldre** » Sat, 15 Jun 2002 01:30:19

>>>To attest to the
>>>durability, try and find someone else still using the same controller
>>>they used with Indycar Racing.

>>:::raises hand:::
>>Actually, I'd have to check when I got my TSW. I've had it for a few years,
>>but don't remember the exact time I bought it.

>>Eldred

>I rest my case, Eldred. Another controller from a manufacturer that
>doesn't offer FFB.

Then I didn't understand your point, sorry. My TSW is durable - I haven't had
any major problems with it. When I bought it, there weren't any FF wheels that
seemed like more than a gimmick. Besides, I didn't think that FF would make
much of a difference to my driving. Since then, I've heard several people say
it's improved their laptimes. But, I can't buy another wheel right now, so
that's no longer an option.

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
Thanks to those of you who made a donation for *** cancer research. The
walkathon is over, but donations are still being accepted. Details on my
webpage.

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Edward** » Sat, 15 Jun 2002 07:37:12

Perhaps I read more into it than was there, my apologies if I rattled your
cage a bit :-)

--
Edward
Commissioner
MARA Middle-Aged Racers Association

> On 6/13/02 5:24 AM, in article

> > Rory,

> >> If you read the article carefully and completely;

> > I did, this time as well as when it first came out in 2000

> >> you will read that what
> >> needs to be changed to make FF work properly hasn't been changed yet
> >> therefore it is still valid today. Afterall there still is no
simulation
> >> software as good as GPL and look how old that is.

> > But surely you could update it, even if it was to say that FFB is still
not
> > at the stage where Hyperstim would implement it, especially so if you
are
> > going to have a poll about it. I just found it odd that you would have a
> > poll in 2002 and make coy comments in the NG that there was something
> > happening with regard to this. Your comments here lead me to believe
that
> > something was up with FFB and Hyperstim, until I read the old
article.Not
> > bashing you or Hyperstim (yes I have tried one) as I said I just found
it
> > odd.

> > --
> > Edward
> > Commissioner
> > MARA Middle-Aged Racers Association

> Edward,

> The Poll in the Forum on the www.hyperstimcanada.com web site is my idea
to
> respond to the queries that I get about FF. Nothing else should be or was
> meant to be implied. I know there are those out there that really like FF
> and I want to know if not having FF really has stopped someone from
> purchasing a Hyper. If there was enough serious people who would purchase
a
> Hyper only if it had FF than I believe Hyper would have a serious look
into
> FF. I've never had someone say to me that I would only buy the Hyper if
it
> had FF. So far there has not been a serious response to the Poll. Some
> people have said yes but they haven't left there name with a post
confirming
> they were seriously enough so it is hard to take seriously.

> I do appreciate your comments, Edward. I hope you participate in the
Hyper
> Forum.

> Rory S. Brown
> Canadian Hyper Stimulator Distributor

by **Edward** » Sat, 15 Jun 2002 07:43:39

I drive both of those sims as well but without FFB, I find I get more "feel"
for what's going on through my eyes. I tried FFb, really tried to like it,
but just could not "adjust" to it ( for lack of a better term). I do own a
Logi FFb wheel that is my backup wheel for games that don't (won't)
recognize my home made***pit (partially inspired by my go in a Hyperstim
:-)

--
Edward
Commissioner
MARA Middle-Aged Racers Association

by **Peter Hol** » Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:03:20

My fault, Eldred. I was thinking "except for similar quality wheels",
I just didn't type it :-). I haven't had the opportunity to try any
of the other good controllers, they're not common in Australia.
Exchange rates and shipping costs make them uneconomic, particularly
since we have a local source of at least equal quality.

I think that going from a TSW to a plastic disposable wheel, and
that's what they are, they're not meant to last, would be a major
backwards step.

I wonder if these people who swear by FFB are comparing it to cheap
wheels without FFB. They might find that a quality wheel and pedals
would improve their times even more than FFB.

Peter

by **Rory S. Brow** » Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:28:30

Edward,

You didn't rattle my cage at all. I appreciate all comments with respect.

Rory S. Brown

by **Steve Garrot** » Sat, 15 Jun 2002 22:57:12

My first wheel was a Thursmaster GP1 and I used it for years and loved
it. It still works, but the right front button works only when it
wants to. I then moved to an ACT Labs Force RS. I hated the ACT Labs
the first week, then I started to get use to it and started to better
my times. My brother-in-law made a wheel for himself and it is ultra
smooth and it works very nice. It does not have force feedback, and I
must say that if I had a choice, I would use his wheel.

SLG

>>Then I didn't understand your point, sorry. My TSW is durable - I haven't had
>>any major problems with it. When I bought it, there weren't any FF wheels that
>>seemed like more than a gimmick. Besides, I didn't think that FF would make
>>much of a difference to my driving. Since then, I've heard several people say
>>it's improved their laptimes. But, I can't buy another wheel right now, so
>>that's no longer an option.

>>Eldred

>My fault, Eldred. I was thinking "except for similar quality wheels",
>I just didn't type it :-). I haven't had the opportunity to try any
>of the other good controllers, they're not common in Australia.
>Exchange rates and shipping costs make them uneconomic, particularly
>since we have a local source of at least equal quality.

>I think that going from a TSW to a plastic disposable wheel, and
>that's what they are, they're not meant to last, would be a major
>backwards step.

>I wonder if these people who swear by FFB are comparing it to cheap
>wheels without FFB. They might find that a quality wheel and pedals
>would improve their times even more than FFB.

>Peter

(All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new
and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are
due to too many English classes/teachers)

by **Gerry Aitke** » Sun, 16 Jun 2002 01:15:06

> > Roy -- If I ever buy a Hyperstim it will be for GLP/n2002. But there's
> > no chance whatsoever that I'll ever drive GPL/2002 without FF.

> > Gerry

> I drive both of those sims as well but without FFB, I find I get more "feel"
> for what's going on through my eyes. I tried FFb, really tried to like it,
> but just could not "adjust" to it ( for lack of a better term). I do own a
> Logi FFb wheel that is my backup wheel for games that don't (won't)
> recognize my home made***pit (partially inspired by my go in a Hyperstim
> :-)

To each his own, as they say. I'll stick to computer controlled forces
that closely resemble the real thing, and you can stick with a spring.
<G>

Gerry

by **Gerry Aitke** » Sun, 16 Jun 2002 01:27:56

> I wonder if these people who swear by FFB are comparing it to cheap
> wheels without FFB. They might find that a quality wheel and pedals
> would improve their times even more than FFB.

I'm comparing my Momo (which probably has nearly as much metal in it's
construction as a TSW) to my old BRD wheel.

I've tried TSW's, didn't like 'em, too agricultural in their centring
technology for me. Very good if you want to go fast, but not so if your
more into realism and immersion.

BWT, I use Redline pedals with an Actlabs shifter and always heel & toe.
So I suppose i'm a *** realism nut more than a performance oriented
racer.

Gerry

by **Edward** » Sun, 16 Jun 2002 11:16:34

can stick with a spring.

That is a matter of opinion as well, apparently it is not close enough to
the real thing for Hyperstim... or TSW, or many others who prefer not to use
it, who find it more gimmicky than real. Some games (sims) do it better than
others. Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing FFB, it is just a matter of
personal taste and opinion. If /when it does get to the point where it is
more realistic, I'll be in line for it like everyone else. Too each there
own as they say :-)

--
Edward
Commissioner
MARA Middle-Aged Racers Association

by **Don** » Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:33:17

I don't know much about the Hyperstim, but I can tell you this: I'll never
shell out another dollar for any device without Force Feedback again.
But then again, I'm more a (poor) NASCAR sim nut, not into GPL, so I
actually USE FF whenever I'm "racing."

Gunner

> On 6/13/02 5:24 AM, in article

> > Rory,

> >> If you read the article carefully and completely;

> > I did, this time as well as when it first came out in 2000

> >> you will read that what
> >> needs to be changed to make FF work properly hasn't been changed yet
> >> therefore it is still valid today. Afterall there still is no
simulation
> >> software as good as GPL and look how old that is.

> > But surely you could update it, even if it was to say that FFB is still
not
> > at the stage where Hyperstim would implement it, especially so if you
are
> > going to have a poll about it. I just found it odd that you would have a
> > poll in 2002 and make coy comments in the NG that there was something
> > happening with regard to this. Your comments here lead me to believe
that
> > something was up with FFB and Hyperstim, until I read the old
article.Not
> > bashing you or Hyperstim (yes I have tried one) as I said I just found
it
> > odd.

> > --
> > Edward
> > Commissioner
> > MARA Middle-Aged Racers Association

> Edward,

> The Poll in the Forum on the www.hyperstimcanada.com web site is my idea
to
> respond to the queries that I get about FF. Nothing else should be or was
> meant to be implied. I know there are those out there that really like FF
> and I want to know if not having FF really has stopped someone from
> purchasing a Hyper. If there was enough serious people who would purchase
a
> Hyper only if it had FF than I believe Hyper would have a serious look
into
> FF. I've never had someone say to me that I would only buy the Hyper if
it
> had FF. So far there has not been a serious response to the Poll. Some
> people have said yes but they haven't left there name with a post
confirming
> they were seriously enough so it is hard to take seriously.

> I do appreciate your comments, Edward. I hope you participate in the
Hyper
> Forum.

> Rory S. Brown
> Canadian Hyper Stimulator Distributor

by **Gerry Aitke** » Sun, 16 Jun 2002 17:29:07

> >computer controlled forces that closely resemble the real thing, and you
> can stick with a spring.
> > <G>

> That is a matter of opinion as well, apparently it is not close enough to
> the real thing for Hyperstim... or TSW,

I've read what they say about FFB, it's interesting to note that much of
it was written years ago!.

It's clear the the guy who wrote about it foe ECCI didn't have a proper
understanding of the current state of the art.

This is what they say:

You see, this was written before GPL FFB.

a vibrating wheel, a wheel bumping in your hands from hitting another
car or the > wall, etc...<<

When was that written, 1995?

solution would require. We believe that the true competitor needs a
reliable, consistent, highly precise tool to get around the track faster
than competition. This
is what we provide. Consistent with our racing philosophy, we will not
introduce features that do not contribute to improved lap speeds.<<

The truth is they can't afford the licence.

Gerry

by **Mats Lofkvis** » Mon, 17 Jun 2002 00:11:43

[re lack of high end ff wheels]

I totally agree on this. Imho, 90% the talk from the small high
end wheel manufacturers about ff being useless and/or not doable
is just a smoke screen trying to hide the fact that they haven't
found a way to cover the development and licensing costs.

This is a bit disappointing because the superior mechanical
constructions that make the high end wheels so much better than
the $50 plastic stuff would probably make at least as much
difference on a ff wheel.

_
Mats Lofkvist

by **Gerry Aitke** » Mon, 17 Jun 2002 02:43:51

> [re lack of high end ff wheels]

> > The truth is they can't afford the licence.

> I totally agree on this. Imho, 90% the talk from the small high
> end wheel manufacturers about ff being useless and/or not doable
> is just a smoke screen trying to hide the fact that they haven't
> found a way to cover the development and licensing costs.

> This is a bit disappointing because the superior mechanical
> constructions that make the high end wheels so much better than
> the $50 plastic stuff would probably make at least as much
> difference on a ff wheel.

Also, I think half the problem is they're too busy over engineering
their products to justify the price tag. I mean, come on, most of this
stuff costs more than a 100cc kart!

Gerry

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