rec.autos.simulators

by **Richard G Cleg** » Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:00:00

:> : I have to say, I'm completely blown away with all the these people on
:> : RAS with the nerve to question DN's motives and be so rude as to
:> : demand an explanation.
:>
:> I think it's rude to demand an explanation but it's fair enough to
:> ask for one.

: No. You have the RIGHT to ask for one. Everyone has the right to make an ass
: of themselves.

Thank you - very generous.

: Dave, on the other hand, has the RIGHT to charge for his products.

As indeed I said myself later.
:> Sorry, I just believe in the free software ideal. While Dave has a
:> perfect right to charge for what he does I'd prefer the precedent not to
:> be set for user-done add-ons to games.

: Man, are YOU trying to lock the barn door after the horse has bolted. That
: precedent was set decades ago. Many of these products you can find on the
: shelves of software stores.

Fair enough - I'm well aware of that.

: Look, I believe in the freesoftware Ideal too. I use Linux. I support the
: FSF and RMS. I ALSO use GPL, which is definately NOT GPL'd. This does not
: make me a hypocrite. It means I support Free software where I can and
: aknowledge the rights of those who charge me for their output. I have the
: RIGHT not to buy it, if I so chose.

So why are you posting as if I just shat in your shoes?

: Noone OWES you free software.

Never said that.

: I would like nothing better than to see the free software ethic invade the
: user add on community. It will have to invade the driving sim community,
: because , so far, it hardly exists here. You'll have to explain what "free
: software" even MEANS to most of the people making add ons. THEY think it
: means you can download it for free, when in fact, *according to RMS it's
: perfectly ok to charge for free software!*

: Did you get that last? Go to the GNU site and read up on what RMS has to say
: about charging for software.

Read it - believe most of it - but most people around these parts seem
to be acting as though some guy who made a rude (but I thought pretty
fair) point about free software being a good ideal has suggested
something otherworldy and evil.

--
Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
UPDATED WWW: http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Kevin Gavit** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

When they start refusing to pay for cars and houses and groceries we're all
in trouble. Or. . . they have a rude awakening coming.

Seriously though, I've been at the computer game long enough that I remember
when ALL software was free, and freely traded.

Ok, those days are over, but the whole idea of "free" software has nothing
to do with price. I kinda tired of seeing people demand free software be
written for them, as if it were some sort of right they had to sponge off of
other people's labor without putting anything back in themselves.

The whole "free as in speach, not free as in beer" thing goes right over
their head.

by **Bob Thurma** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

I seem to have arrived late! Exactly what was said by the French site?

buzard

> I have to say, I'm completely blown away with all the these people on
> RAS with the nerve to question DN's motives and be so rude as to
> demand an explanation. Damndest display of dishourable sponges I think
> I've ever had the displeasure of witnessing. About the same as getting
> peeved at one of your friends for asking for some help with the gas
> money after giving you a ride. You may just owe him alot more than
> he's asking for.

> Unless DN is under some covert contract from someone with very deep
> pockets, he will *never* be appropriately compensated for the work he
> has done for all of the GPL community, not even close. Have any of you
> who have questioned DN ever hired a programmer -- they don't come
> cheap.

> Don't you wonder why they do it? Why did Larry Holbert write VROC? I
> never see or hear about them being active racers, why would they
> bother? For those of you that don't know: It's a hell of a lot of work
> to produce these things. Instead of***ing around with a track or
> utility for us they could be on the clock making money for
> themseleves. I'm very curious and I'd absolutely love for an

> could do -- I'm sure there must be some interesting stories there.

> The motives of some of the people who have made great contributions to
> GPL are more obvious. It seems to me the GPLEA guys -- and all the
> others I can think of at the moment -- do it because they love GPL.
> Can this be said for LH or DN? I never see evidence that they
> participate. Ever in VROC? Listed on GPLRank?

> I don't understand how you people cannot help but hold a genuine
> appreciation for each and every one of the people who have contributed
> to the GPL community.

> That BS with the French site is pathetic, it has nothing to do with
> legalities -- it was just plain un-cool to do that. We all owe DN
> better. I've never met him, but DN is a very good friend of mine.

> Cut him some slack, he sure as hell has been good to you.

> Randy

by **Marc Dav** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

I'm ion Business and ppl expect me to justify my pricing all the time.
Seems to be pretty standard these days to try and get the best deal u
can by grinding the Retailer/Wholesaler/Importer and by expecting him
to somehow justify their Price for whatever the Product or Service
should be. Why is or should D Noonan be exempt from this? You can't
seriously tell me that when you by a New Car you dont expect the
dealer to either reduce or justify his asking price

by **SKur** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

OOps, Dave is posted on GPLRank, used to race a little with Larry, dunno
what they up to lately though, been away fer awhile

Martyn_D

> good post Randy

> MS

> > I have to say, I'm completely blown away with all the these people on
> > RAS

by **Martin Urs** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

This is a thread I didn't really want to be involved in
(though I did buy his converter earlier this summer), but guess who's
exactly one place ahead of Dave in GPLRank?

Better stop work on Suzuka, Dave. You've got one quarter of a
second to make up! :-)

Martin
Long Live Nigel Mansell!

by **Richard G Cleg** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

: Seriously though, I've been at the computer game long enough that I remember
: when ALL software was free, and freely traded.

Well, wasn't it better? I thought it was.

: Ok, those days are over, but the whole idea of "free" software has nothing
: to do with price. I kinda tired of seeing people demand free software be
: written for them, as if it were some sort of right they had to sponge off of
: other people's labor without putting anything back in themselves.

I don't think anyone here has demanded free software be written for
them. Just questionned the action of someone charging for software when
others have, in fact, given theirs away free.

Also, where's this "sponging" thing come from? In the elder days it
was never a trade compact was it "I write this for you and then you
write this for me".

: The whole "free as in speach, not free as in beer" thing goes right over
: their head.

That's because it's a vacuous statement meaning nothing very much
about anything. Do you honestly expect anyone to read that and go "Ah,
I see now, your revealing statement has cleared up the whole matter for
me" and head off home. Sorry, I still believe that where possible
software should be free as in free beer not free as in free speech.

--
Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

by **Stephen Ferguso** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Is there more than one person offering a track converter? I don't think so.
Pretty hard to squeeze someone for the best price when they are the only
show in town.

Stephen

by **David R. Ericso** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

> I'm ion Business and ppl expect me to justify my pricing all the time.
> Seems to be pretty standard these days to try and get the best deal u
> can by grinding the Retailer/Wholesaler/Importer and by expecting him
> to somehow justify their Price for whatever the Product or Service
> should be. Why is or should D Noonan be exempt from this? You can't
> seriously tell me that when you by a New Car you dont expect the
> dealer to either reduce or justify his asking price

Hmmm... I have yet to get on Microsoft's or Hasbro's, or Sierra's, or
even EB's site (or even call them doing this, for that matter) and start
haggling over price on a software product I'm interested in... So Mr. Gates,
I'll offer you $70 for W98 Upgrade edition and tell me, why are you charging
$90 for it? Can you please justify why your product is worth $90? Excuse
me... where did you tell me to shove my computer?

Man, I've been missing out on software price haggling this whole time...
I must be living in a cave! :-)

Oh... buying software IS really different from buying a car? Go figure!

Dave

by **Kevin Gavit** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

> > I'm ion Business and ppl expect me to justify my pricing all the time.
> > Seems to be pretty standard these days to try and get the best deal u
> > can by grinding the Retailer/Wholesaler/Importer and by expecting him
> > to somehow justify their Price for whatever the Product or Service
> > should be. Why is or should D Noonan be exempt from this? You can't
> > seriously tell me that when you by a New Car you dont expect the
> > dealer to either reduce or justify his asking price

> Hmmm... I have yet to get on Microsoft's or Hasbro's, or Sierra's, or
> even EB's site (or even call them doing this, for that matter) and start
> haggling over price on a software product I'm interested in... So Mr.
Gates,
> I'll offer you $70 for W98 Upgrade edition and tell me, why are you
charging
> $90 for it? Can you please justify why your product is worth $90? Excuse
> me... where did you tell me to shove my computer?

> Man, I've been missing out on software price haggling this whole time...
> I must be living in a cave! :-)

Yep, guess you have. This is exactly the way site license prices are set.

For the boxed retail OS you are right, you don't haggle with Bill, you
haggle with the owner/operater of the retail store.

There is no such thing as a fixed price in a free economy.

By the way, I'm the owner of a retail store, I've got lots of customers who
know this and haggle with me all the time. Oftentimes I let them "win" by
taking their money.

Only in your perception. The only real difference is in the cost benifit
ratio. For a twenty dollar item it isn't worth the sellers time to spend too
much time haggling. It isn't worth YOUR time either.

by **David R. Ericso** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

> There is no such thing as a fixed price in a free economy.

> By the way, I'm the owner of a retail store, I've got lots of customers who
> know this and haggle with me all the time. Oftentimes I let them "win" by
> taking their money.

True, it is a free economy. However, I have never seen a customer haggling
a price in a retail store, be it Wal-Mart or Electronics Boutique. I just
don't think you would get very far with the person behind the counter by
haggling a price at these stores.

I assume, because you say your customers haggle prices with you all the time
that you have a small store, which requires your presence there a lot.
That's the only way it would make sense to me that you have customers
haggling prices. So what do you sell at your store, and where are you
located? Do you have an online presence where I can haggle prices with you?

Dave

by **Kai Fulle** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

I wouldn't be surprised if there IS haggleling going on when you buy W98,
except instead it's the retailer\wholesaler that haggles the best price for
volume with MS. So it is going on.

> > I'm ion Business and ppl expect me to justify my pricing all the time.
> > Seems to be pretty standard these days to try and get the best deal u
> > can by grinding the Retailer/Wholesaler/Importer and by expecting him
> > to somehow justify their Price for whatever the Product or Service
> > should be. Why is or should D Noonan be exempt from this? You can't
> > seriously tell me that when you by a New Car you dont expect the
> > dealer to either reduce or justify his asking price

> Hmmm... I have yet to get on Microsoft's or Hasbro's, or Sierra's, or
> even EB's site (or even call them doing this, for that matter) and start
> haggling over price on a software product I'm interested in... So Mr.
Gates,
> I'll offer you $70 for W98 Upgrade edition and tell me, why are you
charging
> $90 for it? Can you please justify why your product is worth $90? Excuse
> me... where did you tell me to shove my computer?

> Man, I've been missing out on software price haggling this whole time...
> I must be living in a cave! :-)

> Oh... buying software IS really different from buying a car? Go figure!

> Dave

by **Uncle Feste** » Sat, 22 Jul 2000 04:00:00

> Linux has managed to raise a community of people who expect to pay for
> nothing. Not games, not apps, not anything.

That's nothing. Capitalism has managed to raise a whole society that
expects to get paid for *everything*. Looking at co-workers & some
government employees, I'd say many even demand getting money for doing
absolutely *nothing*! :-) Greedy bastards. :-)

--
Chuck Kandler

A man is no less a Slave just because he is
allowed to choose a new Master every four years.

Registered Linux User #180746
http://counter.li.org

by **Uncle Feste** » Sat, 22 Jul 2000 04:00:00

> You can't
> seriously tell me that when you by a New Car you dont expect the
> dealer to either reduce or justify his asking price

And the auto industry is a friggin' joke as well. I have family members
who work at each of the Big 3. If they go & buy a car, there's anywhere
from 3 to 5 Grand lopped off the price right then & there. Don't tell
me the auto company isn't *still* making a profit on this purchase!
Just goes to show how badly we're always getting ripped off by these
businesses. Then you have people who will try & make you feel guilty
for not just laying down & being stepped on by these businesses, but
telling it how it really is. Big-business apologists are so
brain-washed, it's pathetic. It's as though, "Oh, you're really ripping
society off big time. But since you'll also allow us to work for you,
it's OK." Baloney. Legalized theft, plain & simple.

--
Chuck Kandler

A man is no less a Slave just because he is
allowed to choose a new Master every four years.

Registered Linux User #180746
http://counter.li.org

by **Marc Dav** » Sat, 22 Jul 2000 04:00:00

>> You can't
>> seriously tell me that when you by a New Car you dont expect the
>> dealer to either reduce or justify his asking price

>And the auto industry is a friggin' joke as well. I have family members
>who work at each of the Big 3. If they go & buy a car, there's anywhere
>from 3 to 5 Grand lopped off the price right then & there. Don't tell
>me the auto company isn't *still* making a profit on this purchase!
>Just goes to show how badly we're always getting ripped off by these
>businesses. Then you have people who will try & make you feel guilty
>for not just laying down & being stepped on by these businesses, but
>telling it how it really is. Big-business apologists are so
>brain-washed, it's pathetic. It's as though, "Oh, you're really ripping
>society off big time. But since you'll also allow us to work for you,
>it's OK." Baloney. Legalized theft, plain & simple.

>--
>Chuck Kandler

>A man is no less a Slave just because he is
>allowed to choose a new Master every four years.

>Registered Linux User #180746
>http://counter.li.org

And once again you all only read something once and entirely miss the
point. The fact is in all other instances ppl demand anr or assume the
right question pricing. What makes this different?

rec.autos.simulators

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS

Noonan deserves better than this BS