rec.autos.simulators

by **Asbj?rn Bj?rnst** » Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:29:46

> > Agreed. But one should realize that a lot of the anti-piracy claims
> > are bullshit. If a kid grab a pirated copy of a game he wouldn't have
> > bought anyway, noone lost money. The only difference may be that
> > someone made a buck on some cd-disks.

> Don't be naive. Of course someone lost money. They lost a sale, and
> that is money. The fact that they didn't have the money yet is
> irrelevant. Don't you know anything about how business works?

if (cj)
((.)if, *f)
Etymology: ME, fr. OE i[gif]; akin to OHG i[ibu] if
1) a) cj, in the event that
b) cj, allowing that
c) cj, on condition that

It's a difficult word. I know. Don't worry, you'll probably figure it
out sooner or later.
--
-asbjxrn

by **John Metco** » Sun, 09 Jun 2002 13:15:44

for some reason
> original games here are half the price of what they
cost in
> eg. Norway.
> --
> -asbjxrn

that's another form of piracy , isn't it ?
they are milking Norwegians to subsidize the americans

by **Asbj?rn Bj?rnst** » Sun, 09 Jun 2002 13:09:14

> Yes you are correct you are absolutely right, now if you were to take it as
> it was meant and not analize the analagy you would have found what a few
> others figured out too, stealing is stealing period no if's, and's & but's
> about it, well if I just ...... NO!

Of course I'm right :-)
The analogy is flawed, so it should not be used.
In my opinion, this is not stealing, shoplifting a copy from a shop is
stealing, you take something that has cost money to produce and ship
around. What you do do, is breaking copyright laws, and violating
someones intellectual rights.
Btw. lots of people disagree about what stealing is. This is obviously
one example, does the owner/bosses of a firm steal from the workers
when they pocket the profits instead of dividing it between all the
employees? Does a shop owner steal from his customer when he charge
too much for some goods, knowing the customers would have to drive for
hours if they want to buy the goods somewhere else? Does a game
company steal from it's customers when they charge full price for a
product they know is flawed but they release anyway to get the
christmas season sales? Do I steal if I copy a book and give it to a
friend of mine? What if I lend him my original? Do I steal if I take a
photograph of a poster? What if I blow it up to original size and hang
it on my wall?
--
-asbjxrn

by **Asbj?rn Bj?rnst** » Sun, 09 Jun 2002 13:19:33

> > for some reason
> > original games here are half the price of what they
> > cost in eg. Norway.

> that's another form of piracy , isn't it ?
> they are milking Norwegians to subsidize the americans

I think it's more a function of the market. The price is what people
are willing to pay for the goods, not what it costs to produce. In a
market where you can get basically free copies of the goods, people
are willing to pay less and the price goes down, probably close to
what it actually costs to produce/market.

Don't ever fall into the "If it weren't for piracy, the prices would
be much lower." trap. They will charge what people are willing to pay.
--
-asbjxrn

by **Nick** » Sun, 09 Jun 2002 23:06:29

Did you steal that from a dictionary of some kind? <g>

by **Haqsa** » Sun, 09 Jun 2002 23:53:17

You have made a hypothetical case that I feel is irrelevant and
unrealistic. The reality is that if someone grabs a copy of a game they
are a potential customer for that game. Your premise that they wouldn't
have bought it anyway is simply not realistic. Why did they make a copy
of the game if they weren't interested in it? If they were interested,
they are a potential customer. If they are a potential customer and
they made a copy, then the company just lost a sale.

> if (cj)
> ((.)if, *f)
> Etymology: ME, fr. OE i[gif]; akin to OHG i[ibu] if
> 1) a) cj, in the event that
> b) cj, allowing that
> c) cj, on condition that

> It's a difficult word. I know. Don't worry, you'll probably figure it
> out sooner or later.
> --
> -asbjxrn

by **Eldre** » Mon, 10 Jun 2002 03:40:25

>You have made a hypothetical case that I feel is irrelevant and
>unrealistic. The reality is that if someone grabs a copy of a game they
>are a potential customer for that game. Your premise that they wouldn't
>have bought it anyway is simply not realistic. Why did they make a copy
>of the game if they weren't interested in it? If they were interested,
>they are a potential customer. If they are a potential customer and
>they made a copy, then the company just lost a sale.

He didn't say they weren't interested in it. He said they wouldn't buy it.
There's a difference - they might want it, but can't afford it. Therefore,
they wouldn't buy it.

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
Thanks to those of you who made a donation for *** cancer research. The
walkathon is over, but donations are still being accepted. Details on my
webpage.

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Haqsa** » Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:42:45

So not being able to afford it justifies copying it? That's a little
too self-serving for me, sorry. Besides, anyone that can afford a
computer in the first place can certainly afford to set a little money
aside until he has saved up enough for a game. Or he can go without.
We are talking about a game, not something that is either fundamentally
necessary or exorbitantly expensive.

by **Asbj?rn Bj?rnst** » Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:45:18

> You have made a hypothetical case that I feel is irrelevant and
> unrealistic. The reality is that if someone grabs a copy of a game they
> are a potential customer for that game. Your premise that they wouldn't
> have bought it anyway is simply not realistic. Why did they make a copy
> of the game if they weren't interested in it? If they were interested,
> they are a potential customer. If they are a potential customer and
> they made a copy, then the company just lost a sale.

For the record, I didn't make that case, I entered the thread after
this case was constructed.

However, speaking for myself. In somce cases I might be curious about
a game, but may not be willing to shell out a lot of money for
something that may be utter crap. Demos you say? Sure, that would work
if developers didn't think "Bummer, this feature is hard to code, we
better leave it out of the demo so it doesn't look bad/we'll get it
right before the release of the game." and if a demo with one car was
a good indication on how it will run with 20.

If I play it more than a token amount, I will buy the
original. Sometimes more than once.
--
-asbjxrn

by **Hans Jense** » Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:27:50

Hey ok that's cool and you can argue till your blue in the face about how
bad my analagy is and what some people considers stealing and so on, the
bottom line here is it's wrong, and we were all born knowing right from
wrong, now some of us grow up in different inviroment's and sometimes that
will in turn***up our views on thing's it's like this I believe that
next to God association is the second most powerfull source and if you hang
around thiefs/smokers/hackers/millionaers don't matter just pick 1
eventually youl believe stealing/smoking/hacking or being a millionaer is
not such a bad deal after all now the later I believe is a pretty good deal
in my opinion but i hope you get my drift? but hey it's just my opinion and
like i said in another post: A man convinced against his will is of the same
opinion still!! so no matter what I say the ones that think piracy is ok
will think it ok and the ones that think it's not well your a smart man
Think about this though have you ever seen a millionaer hold up a 7/11, me
either ! ok that may just be a little to far out and I'm not a millionaer
yet

> > Yes you are correct you are absolutely right, now if you were to take it
as
> > it was meant and not analize the analagy you would have found what a few
> > others figured out too, stealing is stealing period no if's, and's &
but's
> > about it, well if I just ...... NO!

> Of course I'm right :-)
> The analogy is flawed, so it should not be used.
> In my opinion, this is not stealing, shoplifting a copy from a shop is
> stealing, you take something that has cost money to produce and ship
> around. What you do do, is breaking copyright laws, and violating
> someones intellectual rights.
> Btw. lots of people disagree about what stealing is. This is obviously
> one example, does the owner/bosses of a firm steal from the workers
> when they pocket the profits instead of dividing it between all the
> employees? Does a shop owner steal from his customer when he charge
> too much for some goods, knowing the customers would have to drive for
> hours if they want to buy the goods somewhere else? Does a game
> company steal from it's customers when they charge full price for a
> product they know is flawed but they release anyway to get the
> christmas season sales? Do I steal if I copy a book and give it to a
> friend of mine? What if I lend him my original? Do I steal if I take a
> photograph of a poster? What if I blow it up to original size and hang
> it on my wall?
> --
> -asbjxrn

by **Asbj?rn Bj?rnst** » Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:05:37

> Hey ok that's cool and you can argue till your blue in the face about how
> bad my analagy is and what some people considers stealing and so on, the
> bottom line here is it's wrong, and we were all born knowing right from
> wrong, now some of us grow up in different inviroment's and sometimes that
> will in turn***up our views on thing's it's like this I believe that
> next to God association is the second most powerfull source and if you hang
> around thiefs/smokers/hackers/millionaers don't matter just pick 1
> eventually youl believe stealing/smoking/hacking or being a millionaer is
> not such a bad deal after all now the later I believe is a pretty good deal
> in my opinion but i hope you get my drift?

That's one hell of a sentence, I certainly is blue in the face now. My
only point was that there is a difference between taking away
something, (a car) and making a copy of something. One make a very big
impact on someone, the other you will have a hard time detecting at
all.
If someone breaks into Louvre, and takes a photograph of
Mona Lisa, do you think he might as well have stolen Mona Lisa?
It is the same thing?
And people is not born knowing right from wrong, that is something we
learn (Very slowly) as we grow up.

Wiona Ryder.

Look, I'm not saying you should get warez because you don't feel like
paying for something, but the world is not black and white. That's why
you don't get the electric chair for jaywalking.

If you can give me a good ethical/m***reason for why it is wrong to
use a warez copy for evaluation of a game as opposed to using a demo,
I'd be happy to hear it. "The developers can't cheat me into buying an
inferior product by hiding flaws in the demo" is not a good reason.
--
-asbjxrn

by **Eldre** » Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:11:45

>So not being able to afford it justifies copying it? That's a little
>too self-serving for me, sorry. Besides, anyone that can afford a
>computer in the first place can certainly afford to set a little money
>aside until he has saved up enough for a game. Or he can go without.
>We are talking about a game, not something that is either fundamentally
>necessary or exorbitantly expensive.

I didn't say that it would justify copying it, but it wouldn't mean a lost
sale. Correct, a game isn't that expensive, and I'd agree with you there. I
couldn't afford N2002, and I wasn't going to buy it. I got lucky - someone
else bought it for me. But the principle is there, mostly on expensive
software. Someone wants a video-editing program, for example. It may cost
$1000, or more. If the person can't afford it, he won't buy it. Therefore,
it's not a 'lost' sale, because the sale wouldn't have been made in the FIRST
place.
Another example of a so-called 'lost' sale - the recent Ferrari team
controversy. Several people said "That's it - I'm NOT going to buy a Ferrari
now because I'm pissed at them." You really think that Ferrari believes they
lost those sales? It was a joke - most of the people who said that couldn't
afford a Ferrari if they ate only Ramen noodles for the next 20 YEARS... You
can't lose a sale that was never going to HAPPEN.

Other than that point - I agree with you.<g>

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
Thanks to those of you who made a donation for *** cancer research. The
walkathon is over, but donations are still being accepted. Details on my
webpage.

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Haqsa** » Tue, 11 Jun 2002 00:42:45

You most certainly did, and here is the quote:

That is specifically the argument I was addressing, not the one that
started this thread.

Okay this may sound inconsistent on my part, but on that point I agree
with you. If you are willing to buy the game if it proves to be
enjoyable, then nobody lost a sale and there is no harm done.

by **Asbj?rn Bj?rnst** » Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:16:10

> > For the record, I didn't make that case, I entered the thread after
> > this case was constructed.

> You most certainly did, and here is the quote:

> > Agreed. But one should realize that a lot of the anti-piracy claims
> > are bullshit. If a kid grab a pirated copy of a game he wouldn't have
> > bought anyway, noone lost money. The only difference may be that
> > someone made a buck on some cd-disks.

> > -asbjxrn

> That is specifically the argument I was addressing, not the one that
> started this thread.

# (is it piracy when you wouldn't have bought the game anyway because you have
# no money, or just lay-by?)

Then Hans Jensen answered:
# Well how about going down to your local chevie dealer and asking: is it
# stealing anyway's when i dont have the money for that Z06, that i wasn't
# planing to buy anyway's

--
-asbjxrn

by **Hans Jense** » Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:42:15

> > Hey ok that's cool and you can argue till your blue in the face about
how
> > bad my analagy is and what some people considers stealing and so on, the
> > bottom line here is it's wrong, and we were all born knowing right from
> > wrong, now some of us grow up in different inviroment's and sometimes
that
> > will in turn***up our views on thing's it's like this I believe that
> > next to God association is the second most powerfull source and if you
hang
> > around thiefs/smokers/hackers/millionaers don't matter just pick 1
> > eventually youl believe stealing/smoking/hacking or being a millionaer
is
> > not such a bad deal after all now the later I believe is a pretty good
deal
> > in my opinion but i hope you get my drift?

> That's one hell of a sentence, I certainly is blue in the face now. My
> only point was that there is a difference between taking away
> something, (a car) and making a copy of something. One make a very big
> impact on someone, the other you will have a hard time detecting at
> all.

I do believe it was just an analigy if you want to read in to it that much
that is your choice, I am not Jesus, and do not have the wisdom, to come up
with the perfect analigy!

Why brake in Isn't that illegal? well not entirely the same thing, but then
you arent perfect either :-)

Well you see that is your opinion. I believe in that we are born with the
knowledge of knowing right from wrong and when your parents tell you not to
mess up everything or throw things around and stuff like that, is simply
dicipline!

- Show quoted text -

I apologize, I can't, I can suggest renting it for evaluation purposes only,
if you like it buy it ! but all you do by using a warez version is encourage
the crackers/hackers to keep on doing it which I realize is pretty much a
lost cause just like you cant stop the world from breaking laws, and I am
guilty of that myself, especially the law that prohibits me from driving my
car at 210km/h and my bike at 290km/h :-)

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