rec.autos.simulators

by **Bart Westr** » Mon, 24 Jun 2002 03:25:54

> > Also should you start it up again, try with your 3D glasses on. The
> > well-filled environment makes for a good 3D effect, and there are no
more
> 2D
> > graphics to spoil it.

> Are you bonkers? I spun today and ended up facing the wall. There were
some
> specators + a camera team on the other side. They were totally 100% flat
> cardboard cutouts, blurry and obviously only meant to ever be seen when
> passing by at 300kph.

No I am not "bonkers". Maybe on the hardware we will have 10 years from now
those sort of things will be 3D ----- and they will move around too :) The
thing is that they do not interfere with 3D stereo viewing. In GP3 it was
really bad, with parts of the***pit floating at screen depth and such.
That has all gone away in GP4.

The amount of (graphical) detail is astounding I think. And somehow they
made it such that it helps the racing instead of distracting from it. What
you mention is an error in the program, not lack of detail.

Bart Westra

by **Bart Westr** » Mon, 24 Jun 2002 02:48:06

> >Bart retaliating ;-)

> Bart, just one question: Have you tried F1 2002, and how do you think
> about the physics of F1 2002 compared to those of GP4?

I have briefly tried the F1 2002 demo, but stopped because of lack of time.
My time goes to GPL and GP3_2000 at the moment, plus a lot of league and
team managing.
I have F1 2001 but did not play it much for the same reason. Also the series
does not appeal to me enough to drop the other stuff. If my -offline- GP3
league would switch to F1 200x I would probably follow them though. The team
mates and opponents and the atmosphere are most important for me.

So I can't compare GP4 well to F1 200x. My point is this discussion was not
which is better though. It's just that I find 15 minutes a rather short time
to judge a fairly complicated sim.

Bart

by **Frod** » Mon, 24 Jun 2002 07:56:17

Considering no QA department on the planet could have missed the fact the
garages are invisible in the mirrors would indicate they chose to make it
that way. That's a lack of detail. Or a rushed release. I believe the game
is plagued by both. Its engine is years behind the time in looks, it also
runs with the speed of a debug build. Heck, who knows, maybe they shipped a
debug build in the rush to get it out. If so maybe all our problems goes
away in the first patch. Somehow I doubt it. I also doubt it'll be better
taken care of post-release than the previous GP titles.

--
Frode

by **Ronald Stoeh** » Mon, 24 Jun 2002 07:53:43

>>>Bart retaliating ;-)

>>Bart, just one question: Have you tried F1 2002, and how do you think
>>about the physics of F1 2002 compared to those of GP4?

snip

> So I can't compare GP4 well to F1 200x. My point is this discussion was not
> which is better though. It's just that I find 15 minutes a rather short time
> to judge a fairly complicated sim.

Not, if you love to hate something. I hate F12kwhatever, and I love doing it.
;)

--
l8er
ronny

Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change
to take effect. Reboot now?

by **Andre Warring** » Mon, 24 Jun 2002 23:24:47

I get it :)

True, I absolutely didn't test everything in GP4. But after F1 2002 it
was such a huge disappointment, the physics are nowhere as near as
those of F1 2002, and that's the most important aspect of any racing
sim for me.

In a racing sim a car should feel alive, you should be able to feel
what the car is doing. Only a few sim offer this, GPL, N2002 and F1
2002 come to memory, but GP4 certainly isn't one of those.
Unless the default setups suck THAT much that they spoil GP4 entirely,
please mail me when that is truly the case, I promise to give GP4 a
second change then :)

Andre

by **Andre Warring** » Mon, 24 Jun 2002 23:25:30

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 00:53:43 +0200, Ronald Stoehr

>Not, if you love to hate something. I hate F12kwhatever, and I love doing it.
>;)

Your statement is nonsense.

Andre

by **Ronald Stoeh** » Tue, 25 Jun 2002 00:24:36

> On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 00:53:43 +0200, Ronald Stoehr

>>Not, if you love to hate something. I hate F12kwhatever, and I love doing it.
>>;)

> Your statement is nonsense.

Oooh, now I made you angry, didn't I?

Well, your statements about GP4's physics are nonsense, too.
Or maybe just very subjective? After 15 minutes testing a warez
version. Not even checking out the setups realizing they are very
stable and for beginners.

--
l8er
ronny

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to take effect. Reboot now?

by **Andre Warring** » Tue, 25 Jun 2002 04:35:06

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:24:36 +0200, Ronald Stoehr

>> Your statement is nonsense.

>Oooh, now I made you angry, didn't I?

You did not, I was merely stating that you are talking nonsense.

Andre

by **Ronald Stoeh** » Tue, 25 Jun 2002 04:57:20

> On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:24:36 +0200, Ronald Stoehr

>>>Your statement is nonsense.

>>Oooh, now I made you angry, didn't I?

> You did not, I was merely stating that you are talking nonsense.

Whatever, I made a not so serious post, I even included a smiley for
the F12k fan boys, and you get personal. So, get a life.

--
l8er
ronny

Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change
to take effect. Reboot now?

by **Andre Warring** » Tue, 25 Jun 2002 07:31:36

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:57:20 +0200, Ronald Stoehr

>> You did not, I was merely stating that you are talking nonsense.

>Whatever, I made a not so serious post, I even included a smiley for
>the F12k fan boys, and you get personal. So, get a life.

In several posts you are refering to 'Papy-lovers', insinuating that
my/others opinions are not objective. For the record, I really liked
GP3 2000, untill I got my hands on F1 2001. F1 2002 is a step forward,
especially in terms of physics.

What I hate so much about GP4 is that is has the same ridiculous flaws
as GP3 has, the silly black flag -> slowdown rules, the wonderfull
processor occupancy method, the calibration puzzle, the same canned
spins feeling.. Just give a game some new graphics and still there are
people out there who buy this crap, instead of letting the
programmer(s) know we don't want this ***anymore.

Andre

by **Bart Westr** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 19:46:49

----- Original Message -----

Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: GP4 release date

.......
> >So I can't compare GP4 well to F1 200x. My point is this discussion was
not
> >which is better though. It's just that I find 15 minutes a rather short
time
> >to judge a fairly complicated sim.
> >Bart

> True, I absolutely didn't test everything in GP4. But after F1 2002 it
> was such a huge disappointment, the physics are nowhere as near as
> those of F1 2002, and that's the most important aspect of any racing
> sim for me.

> In a racing sim a car should feel alive, you should be able to feel
> what the car is doing. Only a few sim offer this, GPL, N2002 and F1
> 2002 come to memory, but GP4 certainly isn't one of those.
> Unless the default setups suck THAT much that they spoil GP4 entirely,
> please mail me when that is truly the case, I promise to give GP4 a
> second change then :)

Well the "feel" you get from a sim is something that one constructs in one's
head from the clues given by the sim. The clues are: sound (engine, tyre
squeel), vision (surroundings, track flowing by, moving***pit, steering
wheel) and force feedback if your control device supports it. Using these
clues you compensate for not driving in a real car, where in addition you
feel G-forces along three axis and rumbles of the machine though your seat.
It takes time to get the right feeling from the feedback that the sim
provides. Also one must more or less learn the "language" the sim is using.
For example, I doubt very much that you were getting a great feel out of GPL
in the first 15 minutes that you tried it. It must have been a spinning
frenzy (unless you are a "GPL natural talent" ;-)

Now GP4 (and GP3_2K) provides all the feedbacks that I have mentioned, in
this respect it is equal to the sims you mention. Also these feedbacks come
from the physics engine, they are not just effects. The problem is that GP4
speaks a slightly different language. If I run GPL right after GP3, I spin
all the time. If I run GP3 right after GPL, it feels dead. Therefor it is
not a good idea to first run your favorite sim, and then immediately switch
to GP4 for comparison. Better pick a few days/evenings in the course of a
week, and dedicate those to learning GP4 while not driving one of the other
sims at the same day. Fiddling patiently with the setup will help a lot to
interpret the feel. Also the thing comes really comes alive if you drive
close the limit, which takes time to get at. If at the end of that you still
find GP4 is not your piece of cake, I think it's a matter of taste.

As a start for setup experimenting, here is a race setup (taken from GP3 2K)
for Sepang:
Setup:
Wing 18,16
Brake balance R40.000:60.000F
Gear 26,32,38,44,50,56
Differential 3/9,6/6
ARB: F 01000 R 0000
Tyre type: Soft Drys
packers/fast bump/fast rebound/slow bump/slow rebound/springs/ride height
F 34/2/3/10/13/0900/18.0 34/2/3/10/13/0900/18.0
R 50/0/1/04/06/0600/39.5 50/0/1/04/06/0600/39.5

ARB will change the feel a lot, as will the wings and the brake balance. And
rain of course ;-)

Bart

by **Andrew MacPhers** » Fri, 28 Jun 2002 15:37:00

> I doubt very much that you were getting a great feel out of GPL
> in the first 15 minutes that you tried it.

Controlling GPL at speed was definitely hard work at first, much more than
15 mins. But IMO as soon as I started to drive the demo... the very first
few seconds, I felt that GPL was doing something very special: modelling a
real vehicle doing real things... albeit with a really stupid driver :o)

Ok, getting controller configs sorted out can make a big change to the
experience, but this kind of gut reaction has rarely been wrong (for me)
in all the sims I've tried over the years. Same goes for flight models in
flight sims.

Andrew McP

by **Mr.ED** » Sat, 29 Jun 2002 23:29:49

I agree completely :)

Wrong Bart.. I hardly read anything about GPL before it's release, so
I realyl didn't knew what to expect.
Ofcourse I spun the car at every corner, but it was the first time the
racing -felt- freaking real.. Immediately called all my friends to
tell them about this amazing new game :)
I was hooked immediately. I didn't knew much about car racing and
physics, but I did knew immediately that this sim was really special!

Thanks for the setup, I will give it a try.

Andre

by **Mr.ED** » Sat, 29 Jun 2002 23:31:44

On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:37 +0100 (BST),

>Controlling GPL at speed was definitely hard work at first, much more than
>15 mins. But IMO as soon as I started to drive the demo... the very first
>few seconds, I felt that GPL was doing something very special: modelling a
>real vehicle doing real things... albeit with a really stupid driver :o)

>Ok, getting controller configs sorted out can make a big change to the
>experience, but this kind of gut reaction has rarely been wrong (for me)
>in all the sims I've tried over the years. Same goes for flight models in
>flight sims.

>Andrew McP

I wish I would have read your post before I posted my reply.. then I
could have just copy&pasted your reply with my name under it :)

Andre