rec.autos.simulators

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

keit

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by keit » Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:00:00



Only the last item is expected - to work as advertised.

The US market is open and very competitive, only a few foreign companies do well
there. Renault, Fiat, Rover, et al, couldn't cut it. Audi almost pulled out a
few years ago, and Volkswagon were very shakey for a while. Also, the consumers
tastes are quite different in the US than most anywhere else. Maybe they don't
need the latest engine, substantially the same as the previous engine, to feel
good about themselves.

The software companies get away with it because of people like you and I who buy
the stuff and don't return it when it is defective. You did return GPL 1.0,
right? Consider this: if the software companies wait until all bugs are removed,
they will never ship a single product and you will now be using a really nice
fully debugged version of DOS 1.0. As an interesting aside, the open source
concept with Linux is another approach to getting a quality product, some might
say it is a better approach.

Personally, I think GPL 1.0 didn't need fixing. I like the addition of Force
Feedback support though. It has been one of the best software products that I
have ever purchased. The latest version of F1RS has more bugs, with the ump***
patches that used to come along until Ubisoft started to call the patches MGP
and demand money for them.

- Show quoted text -

It really doesn't matter how you think the market SHOULD work.

Bottom line: GPL 1.1 has some positives, and some negatives. I can't wait for
GPL 1.2 now - same features as 1.1 but without the timing problems, and maybe a
different solution to the slo-mo problem. Whining won't get the job done, and it
makes you feel worse. Encourage guys like Randy Cassidy to improve the product
and offer your full unconditional support to them and the other developers. Not
just the core GPL guys, but VROC, SpyBoy, GPaL, etc.. too.

Keith.

Markus Stiepe

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by Markus Stiepe » Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:00:00



Nothing to add, all correct, but: Why not make a great product even just a
little bit better?:)
cya!
Markus

Markus Stiepe

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by Markus Stiepe » Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:00:00



They gotcha already!
cya!
Markus

Markus Stiepe

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by Markus Stiepe » Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:00:00



She appeared to be, but she tricked me, and now I can't get loose :))
Salute!
Markus

Markus Stiepe

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by Markus Stiepe » Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:00:00



Bill Mette got 10 points, zero for you.

Who said I didn't? :))
Seriously, you got zero for this one too, the analogy lies in love, and you
don't return somthing you love, got it?

Your favorite today, ey? :))

That's what I did in my initial post, I just didn't add my specs for reasons
u know by now, but who's ***ing?

Have a nice day!
Markus

Markus Stiepe

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by Markus Stiepe » Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:00:00



Nope, *I* didn't say it, read correctly.

wow, I knew this NG is a bit sensible ATM, but *that* sensible?

My comparison is a bit exaggerated (sp?), but you know what I mean......

hope so :)

We both don't know that.

Thats not the point, Terry, comparing it to the other crap, *GPL* is the sim
we are talking about and I wanna get a great game which I love become even
better, and it will not get better when ppl go around worshipping everything
which Papy releases, we need criticism and suggestions, as you said, but as
soon as you do that, you're being called a whiner, I dunno why.........
The help you are talking about includes a list-up of what you think should
be altered or repaired, not every1 is capable of saying:"Change byte 86576
to 9756764533" et voila. And, BTW, that's not my job as a customer. My job
is nagging, nagging, nagging until the Vendor hears me and does something
about my nagging. Sure there are different ways of nagging, some are more,
some are less diplomatic, in the end, they all aim at the same target. I
will be releasing an update on my "Some more thoughts on
VROC-Racing....[Version1.4]" here as soon as this chaos has settled down a
bit and things go their normal way again, check this NG to see if you can
still find it (I doubt it tho, was quite a few weeks ago)
Until then
Lets get to work!
Markus

Chris Schlette

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by Chris Schlette » Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Not really.  You are comparing a $10000+ purchase with a $50 purchase.

Not at all.  This is something you purchased versus something you agreed to
share life together.  That GPL box had no say in whether you purchased it or
not.  Maybe we take it too much for granted.

It works, and its appropriate.  Its not like someone is putting a gun to
your head to use it. :)  I've seen a small to fair share of races being run
with the 1.0 version.

Andrew MacPhers

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by Andrew MacPhers » Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Maybe it's not the way it *should* work, but it's the way it does work. In
the real world our sim enjoyment depends almost entirely on the numbers on
some excel spreadsheet on a Sierra accountant's PC. We have no right to
expect support for GPL, we can only hope Papyrus are allowed to deliver
it.

Andrew McP... proud owner of a sense of perspective and the best damned
sim in the history of the PC :o)

Peter Gag

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by Peter Gag » Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:00:00


Interesting stuff snipped.....

IMHO GPL was the most bug free program I have ever purchased. IMHO it
didn't need patching, it was good enough (for me).

Papy *have* patched it, and thats a bonus. For some people (me) it
appears to work ok. For others it doesn't? I'm sure they will try to fix
these problesm as quickly as possible.

If you were not satisfied with GPL, why did you not return it before
now? If you don't like the patched version, why not simply go back to
the original version (via a GPL re-install)? No-one is forcing you to
use the patch.

You appear to be a very hard person to please? What does all this
whining achieve? Nothing in my view. If you have a *specific* problem
with GPL, post details here and someone, somewhere, will probably try
and sort it out for you. Simple really.

*Peter*     8-)

J

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by J » Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Markus,
Since this steering wheel fix (should be called upgrade) isn't under
warranty and actually you are not willing to pay for it (just a
suggestion - please don't blame me), you should be quite lucky to get
a radio for free.
Your actual steering wheel should be fine until your cars next
generation is available on the market, which has a slightly better
steering ex works.

Jens :-)

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:56:38 +0200, "Markus Stiepel"


>I get my car to a garage to get the steering-wheel fixed, they are incapable
>of doing so, instead they build in a Radio for free.
>Your turn.

---------------------------------------------

Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address
J

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by J » Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:00:00

This "state of the art" thing is really true and can be claimed in
court - at least in Germany.
But what I really don't know:
Which part of GPL is not state-of-the-art or functioning as
advertised? If it's about graphic- or sound-problems with single
Hardware-products, we should blame those manufacturers, who bring out
products with faulty drivers.

Jens



>On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:32:45 +0200, "Markus Stiepel"

>>When a customer buys
>>something from a vendor, he expects that the item he has bought is of good
>>quality, corresponds to the newest state of the art technique and is
>>functioning properly as advertised.

<snip>
---------------------------------------------

Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address
J

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by J » Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Great post, Terry.

My 7,6 sen (2 cts. changed to malaysian money): I bought GPL, IMO the
best and most bug-free racing sim ever.
All initial troubles with Vodoo?, sound,... have been fixed very fast
by hobby-programers for free - thanks to you all. GPL was touched up
by addons - for free.
I never regretted the purchase of that game - what's about you,
Markus? Don't tell me, that you didn't use and enjoy the sim because
of ?????

Jens

BTW: the blonde girl is a nice idea, should be picked up by the
programers


>Now you've gone and done it:



>> ok, I've read enough of some ppl's post by now, and I want to
>straighten

<snip>
---------------------------------------------

Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address
Greg Hellman

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by Greg Hellman » Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Come on, welcome to the real world here, Markus.
But basically what you state...it's a sad thing for any of us
--especially a stickler like myself--to have to admit that you
don't always get what you have a claim to. In the end it all
depends on how service-oriented the particular company that
you deal with finally is and that's all.
However, i found that sometimes the way you address the other
side can make a significant difference in what you get in the end.

--
Greg Hellmann

cause when the feelin's right
i'm gonna race all night

Greg Hellman

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by Greg Hellman » Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:00:00


> I'm not sure every customer expects every product to correspond to the
> newest state of the art technique and to function exactly as
> advertise. In Utopia perhaps, but we are in the real world.

> When I buy something new I expect there to be something wrong with it
> until proven otherwise, and usually it turns out to be justified.

John...so much the truth. As a matter of fact I often find myself
pathetically
swapping the boxes that contain the products back and forth when in the
shop (specially with PC components). All in the desperate hope not to grab
a box with a flawed product. :)

-Greg

Wolfgang Prei

GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

by Wolfgang Prei » Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:00:00


>  I can't speak for European companies.  But in the US, the only things
>that ever get fixed 100% at the manufacturers expense are cars and
>medication.  And then only if it's a matter of safety.  Other than that
>eveything else is pretty much "We tried our best, but too God damn bad if
>you don't like it."  Most things happen to be ok products, but for those
>that aren't, that seems to be the attitude.

But then, as a consumer in the US, you can sue any company for a
trillion fantastillions of dollars and even get away with it.

Hey, here's a thought: Papy, I'm going to sue you on grounds of

a) selling an ***ive product (which leads to loss of sleep) without
   giving a warning,

b) almost ruining my social life and,

c) robbing me of my peace of mind by announcing a patch and not
   delivering aforementioned patch for several months.

My lawyer (it's the same one the Simpsons employ) informs me that we
can go for $50 million in damages. I would accept one million,
however, and drop the charges. Alternatively, you could produce a CART
sim with GPL physics, which I would even *pay* $49.95 for. :)

In a more serious vein: I agree that patches for defective software
are something that producers/developers should provide free of charge.
Unfortunately, there is no way to force them to do this. If a software
product does not meet your expectations, you can return it (in most
cases) - but that's it. If you buy the product and keep it, you are
not legally entitled to upgrades, patches etc. Read the license
agreements on your software, and you will see that you're not legally
entitled to *anything*. ;)

Now, since this is the case, it's the free decision of any developer
to provide patches, or not to provide patches. A developer might think
"We will sell more products in the future if we invest some money now
and patch our old product. The consumers will remember that we care
for their interests." Or they might think: "Only a few people even
know our name and reputation. Sales depend on marketing and licenses,
not on our reputation among some dedicated fans. We can't afford to
lose money here, especially if the competition doesn't either." Or
they try to find a middle way and provide a patch without investing
very much money.

This may not seem fair, or right, but it's part of the way the economy
works. Therefore, I don't even see an incongruity between thanking
Randy et al for the patch, and asking (politely, but firmly) to patch
the patch. Thanking Papyrus and the individuals who actually wrote the
patch for their work - which they were not legally obliged to do -
seems just in good taste. Asking Papyrus and Sierra to patch their
products shows that we are interested and might induce them to provide
patches in the future. If they come to the conclusion that this is
economically viable.

--
Wolfgang Preiss   \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.



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