--
the friendly pysco
-I know it's spelled wrong but I'm not a psycho ;-)
-A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking
--
the friendly pysco
-I know it's spelled wrong but I'm not a psycho ;-)
-A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking
--
the friendly pysco
-I know it's spelled wrong but I'm not a psycho ;-)
-On the other hand.... you have different fingers
> ---
> Antti Markus Peteri
I know modeling the real tracks would be far more difficult and
expensive. To me they would be worth far more than some idealized
fantasy track. There may well be many sim racers that would want fantasy
tracks, but I would vote with my cash for the real ones. If GPL was just
a fantasy sim, I think the number of people that would have spent the
time to master such a difficult sim would have been counted on one hand.
Instead we have a group of very dedicated drivers, and lots of great
add-ons developed. It is the excellent modeling of an interesting time
and racing that attracts and holds many of us.
I'm still working on getting below 8:30 at Nurburgring, and the on-line
racing with real people will keep my interest for some time to come. If
fantasy tracks were my only option, I'd do without them.
Kevin Caldwell
>Gunner
Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Yes, the history is a big factor, on that I do agree. GPL's old
Nrburgring was the first one that made me dig a bit deeper into the
backgrounds and it has been an enriching journey. History is definitely
The Advantage of the Real tracks, simply brings a whole lotta depth
into it all.
BUT. When I'm racing on/offline and engaged in a furious battle or just
enjoying the rhythm and flow of driving when negotiating through the
smooth curves of Zandy by myself, the history soon fades into the
background where it belongs, and there is only NOW and only THIS MOMENT
as there should be, and I won't doubt for a second that the exhilaration
and satisfaction could be there even if I wasn't racing on something that
is supposed to be seen as a digital recreation of reality. The word
Fantasy seems to scare simmers beyond belief. Find another word for it
then. As you should realize by now I have not proposed any 360 degree
vertical loops or NFS style arcade tracks, God forbid! I'm only saying:
Nrburgring is a creation of a human mind too, and if for some fortunate
reasons it got laid in asphalt and realized, it's still just a human
creation, like the "fantasy" tracks would be.
For F1 sim I would of course first and foremost like to have the real
tracks of the season it tries to emulate. More real tracks would be still
better. But I definitely won't hesitate to immediately adopt any tracks
which never will be realized in real life (usually for the obvious
financial reasons) if they are challenging enough and have some "punch"
in them.
Think about today's world. It's harder than ever to have a race track
construction project financed, authorized and all in all successfully
completed. There are more constraints and less latitude for these kind of
enterprises than ever in the history of mankind. For starters, you've got
the ecologists in your back and today they're not just demonstrators
anymore - they're in administration (generally not a bad thing at all).
But the list is endless.
Many new race tracks are lamer than ever. A track like Nrburgring
couldn't be built today. And it's not only about safety. It's the freakin
zillions of constraints that set limits to what is feasible and can be
justified to those who make the decisions in the administration.
Nrburgring would be considered a *** attack against the delicate
nature and a*** of the beautiful mountainous scenery. Instead - if we'd
be in luck - they'd point the constructors to a flat field near some
6-lane autobahn. That's constraints for you.
We're lucky that the Ring once got built and Papy modeled it in GPL. But
what if the constraints had been more limiting back then?
We wouldn't have anything like Nrburgring to play on just
because we're so attached to what is actually laid in asphalt
that we cannot open our hearts to anything that has not been
realized, but is still just a plan in someone's mind?!!
For crying out loud, Nrburgring too was just a plan once. Accordingly,
it would of course require a lot of thought and careful planning to come
up with a decent "fantasy" track too.
Without a doubt, there are still a LOT of old and maybe already vanished
tracks which would be awesome if modeled for our enjoyment and like you,
I would also be willing to pay some big buckz for 'em. But don't overlook
something that hasn't actually been built just because it isn't.
The digital age may well let the track designing talents
bring us what can never ever be realized in real life
again - not in our lifetime, at least.
It would probably take a global thermonuclear war to clear up some
(physical & mental) space for a new Nrburgring. But who'd be racing
then, some rodents perhaps, and on a pitstop they'd stop to take a bite &
chew our burnt flesh. What a delightful vision. I'll stop right here.
That's a lot of fingers in one hand. A regular freak show.
You'd be a fool while we'd be having a good time for that much longer.
But if those tracks really were good, I bet you too would be***
with us.
---
Antti Markus Peteri
15 miles. your dim light shines from so far away
- Soul Asylum, Promises Broken
Kevin said..
And soon, a host of more real-life tracks, hopefully. Pity is it takes so
long for us "humans" to figure out the code the sim developers use. Take a
look at www.gpl.netti.nu and the current projects section. AFAIK, there are
more people also working on "new" tracks for GPL.
After this initial track is released, we'll start on a new one. And
hopefully soon our tools will be good enough that almost anybody can sit
down with a heap of pictures, maps, videos and coffee, and start delivering
more of the real tracks. There sure are enough interesting ones to recreate!
Matt,
-------------
GPLEA
I probably would. A lot of real world tracks aren't particularly
interesting. Why not get a creative person with a *good* understanding of
racing to cook up some really challenging, and really satisfying fantasy
tracks. Put back in the kind of stuff that safety (and common sense has
removed from racing, like blind corners, elevation changes, camber
changes. Oh, and set it all in the middle of Germany and make it foggy
half the time. Oh, and make it about 9:00 per lap.
Stephen
> >If we have to stray further from realism, how about some of the road
course
> >from more recent years, like Laguna Seca (I'd love to try the
Corkscrew!),
> >Estoril, Brno, or Suzuka. I have trouble imagining any fantasy tracks
having
> >the quality or the intrigue of driving the real ones.
> I think the esses of Kyalami is very similar to the Corkscrew. The
elevation
> change isn't as drastic, but the feel is the same...
> Eldred
While the esses at Kyalami start out like the famous corkscrew, they
end up going up hill, while at laguna Seca you need to pull your seat belts
even tighter flying down hill.
Joel Willstein
> >Joel Willstein
> I agree with that, but what I was feebly attempting to avert to was
the
> fact that just about EVERY "real" race track wants royalties of some sort.
> After you do that with 5 or 10 tracks it adds VERY quickly to the bottom
> line cost of the add-on making it prohibitively expensive.
> Fantasy tracks require no royalties, so they can be "made" more
cheaply,
> therefore more tracks could be done for the same amount of money (assuming
> the designers actually DID that).
> So to restate the question: is "more" better or is "real" better? How
> much better is one over the other - for example would you pay more for 3
> real tracks than 10 fantasy tracks?
> Gunner
I would pay for 3 real tracks rather then 10 fantasy tracks. Afterall,
this is supposed to be simulation based. The final cost of a sim is what it
is. Royalties is something that we have to live with. Afterall, that is the
reason why we don't have the Cooper as such. But this is just my opinion,
and you're as intitled to your views as I am.
Joel Willstein
> > I'd certainly buy more road race tracks for GPL, but why do they have to
be
> > fantasy tracks?
> Surely they don't have to, but higher production costs will inevitably
> translate into higher retail prices. It would require some SERIOUS
> research to come up with faithful and worthy reacreations of some of the
> 60's race tracks. If any ambition at all would be put into the attempt,
> the amount of work would be immense. Tho I'm sure many simmers would be
> more than willing to cough up the moola for those "real" tracks.
> Personally I don't really care if it's real or a product of someone's
> imagination. One should keep in mind that building a real life race track
> is - like any big construction undertaking - subject to many constraints;
> physical, financial, aesthetical, ethical, etc. and will thus inevitably
> be a sum of many compromises. The greatest race tracks will only be built
> in the minds of the track designers.
My favorite track in SCGT is Limerock. Not because it's so unique or
difficult, but because of the number of races I ran and watched there over
the year.
Joel Willstein
If you had read my second message in this thread you'd see that I
certainly didn't miss the point but actually emphasized it at the
beginning of my 2nd message. What I fail to understand is the attitude
"real tracks or no tracks" demonstrated in this thread several times
already. As I mentioned, history can add a whole lotta depth to a sim,
and thus enrich the overall experience, but when it comes to actual
simracing, in the heat of the moment history books are just that -
history. I call for enjoyable, well thought-out and carefully
implemented, realistic tracks, whether or not they are representations
of something that once was built in real life.
---
Antti Markus Peteri
15 miles. your dim light shines from so far away
- Soul Asylum, Promises Broken
Amen.
---
Antti Markus Peteri
15 miles. your dim light shines from so far away
- Soul Asylum, Promises Broken
> > One point you're missing, is that you can't get a certain sense of
> > history,or drama from a fantasy track that you get from driving s
simulated
> > track.
> If you had read my second message in this thread you'd see that I
> certainly didn't miss the point but actually emphasized it at the
> beginning of my 2nd message. What I fail to understand is the attitude
> "real tracks or no tracks" demonstrated in this thread several times
> already. As I mentioned, history can add a whole lotta depth to a sim,
> and thus enrich the overall experience, but when it comes to actual
> simracing, in the heat of the moment history books are just that -
> history. I call for enjoyable, well thought-out and carefully
> implemented, realistic tracks, whether or not they are representations
> of something that once was built in real life.
> ---
> Antti Markus Peteri
Joel Willstein
Uh, yeah...that's called the Rat Race... :)
Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
> While the esses at Kyalami start out like the famous corkscrew, they
>end up going up hill, while at laguna Seca you need to pull your seat belts
>even tighter flying down hill.
>Joel Willstein
Eldred - who's hoping to drive Laguna this summer at the Skip Barber school...
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.