"The life of a super genius is just so frustrating, having to deal
with so many idiots..." -- Calvin
"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark
DGF: "But the article has been available from your local web browser
for the last five months."
Arthur Dent: "Oh, yes, well, as soon as I heard I went straight round
to see it, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your
way to call attention to it, had you? I mean, like actually telling
anybody or anything."
DGF: "But the article was on display..."
Arthur Dent: "On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar
to find it."
DGF: "That's the display department."
Arthur Dent: "With a flashlight."
DGF: "Ah, well, the lights had probably gone."
Arthur Dent: "So had the stairs."
DGF: "But look, you found the article, didn't you?"
Arthur Dent: "Yes, yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a
locked file cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the
door saying 'Beware of the Leopard.' "
"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- vvvvvvv
-- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how
hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
:-)
A long time since I'd read that!
John
>How two great minds go together well... ;-)
>-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
>-- vvvvvvv
>-- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how
>hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark
Forgive me if this has been covered already, but I have gotten quite
tired of reading the trash that these threads have spawned. I wondered
if anyone has really taken a look at the numbers rather than just make
grand statements with nothing to back it up.
Now hear me out for a moment. I mean no disrespect to anyone (despite my
opening tone) and by no means do I wish to proclaim one form of racing as
superior to another. I will watch almost any form of motorsports and in
my own view anyone who truly believes that one form is completely
superior to another is just plain ignorant.
I also do not mean to trivialize any racing accident. ANY injury or
fatality is too many. This is a dangerous business and it does happen.
It remains a risk in ALL forms of auto racing but the goal should always
be zero serious injuries.
Now if somebody can provide more accurate numbers than this, please do
so.
I have seen it written lately by various individuals that F1's safety
record is far superior to that of Nascar. This did not ring true to me.
Obviously 4 deaths in one year compared to 2 in either '82 or '94 makes
Nascar seem twice as bad. But Nascar and F1 seasons are not created
equally.
This year (according to http://www.f1-live.com/en/ ) we will have 17
F1 events, with 22 drivers, each one around 200 miles. Again this is a
rough estimate, if anyone has the real mileage please correct the numbers
as I would love to see them. This brings us to an estimated total of
74,800 potential driver/miles raced.
According to the Nascar Winston cup schedule
(http://www.nascar.com/RACE/winston/schedule/) there are 39 events with
43 drivers averaging (I think) just over 400 miles per event but I will
use 400 as a nice round number. This is a potential 670,800 driver/miles
raced.
By these numbers, Nascar will cover enough driver/miles to amount to
almost 9 full F1 seasons.
Of course these potentials are never reached. Accidents, mechanical
failures, and drivers who go get lapped and do not complete the full
distance all take away from the potential maximum. I also am using these
current schedules for all of my math, and not accounting for the
differing schedules from year to year.
Three deaths (Yes three, I'll get to that in a second) in Nascar in the
amount of time (Driver/miles) that F1 has driven since 1992. Neither one
looks superior using that measure.
I say three because Tony Roper was not racing a cup car, I think he was
racing a truck though I could be mistaken. If you quote the figure of
four deaths for Nascar then you are counting other racing series that are
handled by the same sanctioning body. 33 Busch races (about 250 miles
each) and 24 truck races (about 200 each with 36 entries) brings the
yearly Nascar total up to 16 times the driver/miles of an F1 season.
CNNSI:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/motorsports/2001/daytona500/news/200...
Reports 10 Nascar deaths back to 1989, and 4 F1 deaths back to 1982.
1997 is the last year there was a fatality in Nascar before 2000. Since
that time, Nascar has raced 3 full seasons (48 F1 seasons, in
Driver/miles). Have there been fewer than 4 deaths in 48 years of Grand
Prix racing? F1 does not look safe at all now.
F1 has done a good job lately, if you count drivers only and not the poor
guy who was killed at Monza last year, but how can you call F1 superior
when they allow a spectator to run across the track in the middle of a
race? You cannot guarantee that there will not be another fatality in
F1, and every single driver knows in the back of his mind that when he
straps into that car in Australia on Sunday he may not climb out. Also
remember that even the recent good fortune of F1 did not come about until
we all lost Senna. Yes ALL true race fans lost Senna, just as ALL true
race fans lost Earnhardt. Whether I watch a particular series or not it
breaks my heart to learn of a serious racing accident.
By any stretch of the imagination Nascar has had a horrible year, but it
takes a truly low individual to use this tragedy as an opportunity to
disparage others.
I just had to get that off my chest. I do not belive that any one
particular series is better than the other, they are just different. To
say that F1 over any statistically meaningful timespan is far safer than
Nascar demonstrates nothing but ignorance. If anyone ever feels inclined
to do some more research I would like to see the results. I would also
be interested if anyone knows of any good online resources for more
information.
Either way, it's still a dangerous business.
Regards,
Brett C. Cammack
(remove the DOTs from my return address to reply privately)
As you're seeking comments, here's one... Be less confrontational.
I personally prefer the "myth debunker" image. :-)
I have a few observations to make too, I'll leave that later. Suffice to
say,
the public have short memories.
[snip]
They are NOT comparable, PERIOD.
The two cannot be compared at all. Here's a couple more factoids. :-)
F1 event rarely exceed 150 mph. Most events average a bit over 100 mph,
and are usually done on road courses that holds speed down even further.
Of course, you may have to count F2 and F3 as well if you do that...
NASCAR events are run on ovals, and often super speedways, where
speeds exceed 200 mph. Only one or two events are held on road
courses such as Sears Point.
NASCAR also have pre-races (Saturday's 125 mile race). Don't forget
the separate Winston Cup, Busch Series, and Craftsman Truck Series.
Altogether, that's a LOT of events.
F1 (and Indy Cars) are open wheel racers. They don't "draft", and
drafting on road courses is meaningless any way.
You HAVE to know drafting in NASCAR, esp. on the "restrictor plate"
courses.
Comparing the two are comparing apples and oranges. It makes no
sense at all.
--KC
A couple of notes:
Winston Cup runs 2 road races, 1 each at Watkins Glen and Sears Point.
Busch Runs Watkins Glen. I thought the trucks ran one road course, but I
don't see it on the schedule this year. I did count the 125's in the
number of events and towards average driver/miles.
I did not count F2 and F3 since I did not have a schedule handy and am
not as familiar with the rules such as race length, number of drivers
etc. For this same reason I did not count many other stock car series
such as ASA, Winston West, Featherlight Modifieds, etc.
Indycars do draft on ovals when they race them. The CART race at
Michigan is usually filled with many slingshot passes. The IRL I believe
mandated the use of a higher-drag rear wing last year before racing at
Atlanta Motor Speedway that created quite a few lead changes; Very
similiar to the aero package used at the last Nascar races at Daytona and
Talladega.
Thanks for your comments.
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Ok, But F1 changed after Senna's death, will nascar change ?
Will they improve the safety to avoid other things like this to
happen or not ?
Did they change something already ?
Either way, it's still a dangerous business.
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JB
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> Ok, But F1 changed after Senna's death, will nascar change ?
> Will they improve the safety to avoid other things like this to
> happen or not ?
> Did they change something already ?
> > While you troll about the usenet groups, why don't you do a little
> > research or at least basic math yourself?
> > Forgive me if this has been covered already, but I have gotten
> > quite tired of reading the trash that these threads have spawned.
> > I wondered if anyone has really taken a look at the numbers rather
> > than just make grand statements with nothing to back it up.
> > Now hear me out for a moment. I mean no disrespect to anyone
> > (despite my opening tone) and by no means do I wish to proclaim
> > one form of racing as superior to another. I will watch almost
> > any form of motorsports and in my own view anyone who truly
> > believes that one form is completely superior to another is just
> > plain ignorant.
> > I also do not mean to trivialize any racing accident. ANY injury
> > or fatality is too many. This is a dangerous business and it does
> > happen. It remains a risk in ALL forms of auto racing but the
> > goal should always be zero serious injuries.
> > Now if somebody can provide more accurate numbers than this, please
> > do so.
> > I have seen it written lately by various individuals that F1's
> > safety record is far superior to that of Nascar. This did not
> > ring true to me. Obviously 4 deaths in one year compared to 2 in
> > either '82 or '94 makes Nascar seem twice as bad. But Nascar and
> > F1 seasons are not created equally.
> > This year (according to http://www.racesimcentral.net/) we will have
> > 17 F1 events, with 22 drivers, each one around 200 miles. Again
> > this is a rough estimate, if anyone has the real mileage please
> > correct the numbers as I would love to see them. This brings us
> > to an estimated total of 74,800 potential driver/miles raced.
> > According to the Nascar Winston cup schedule
> > (http://www.racesimcentral.net/) there are 39 events
> > with 43 drivers averaging (I think) just over 400 miles per event
> > but I will use 400 as a nice round number. This is a potential
> > 670,800 driver/miles raced.
> > By these numbers, Nascar will cover enough driver/miles to amount
> > to almost 9 full F1 seasons.
> > Of course these potentials are never reached. Accidents,
> > mechanical failures, and drivers who go get lapped and do not
> > complete the full distance all take away from the potential
> > maximum. I also am using these current schedules for all of my
> > math, and not accounting for the
> > differing schedules from year to year.
> > Three deaths (Yes three, I'll get to that in a second) in Nascar in
> > the amount of time (Driver/miles) that F1 has driven since 1992.
> > Neither one looks superior using that measure.
> > I say three because Tony Roper was not racing a cup car, I think he
> > was racing a truck though I could be mistaken. If you quote the
> > figure of four deaths for Nascar then you are counting other
> > racing series that are handled by the same sanctioning body. 33
> > Busch races (about 250 miles each) and 24 truck races (about 200
> > each with 36 entries) brings the yearly Nascar total up to 16
> > times the driver/miles of an F1 season.
> > CNNSI:
> > http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > 01/02 /18/racing_deaths/
> > Reports 10 Nascar deaths back to 1989, and 4 F1 deaths back to
> > 1982. 1997 is the last year there was a fatality in Nascar before
> > 2000. Since that time, Nascar has raced 3 full seasons (48 F1
> > seasons, in
> > Driver/miles). Have there been fewer than 4 deaths in 48 years of
> > Grand Prix racing? F1 does not look safe at all now.
> > F1 has done a good job lately, if you count drivers only and not
> > the poor guy who was killed at Monza last year, but how can you
> > call F1 superior when they allow a spectator to run across the
> > track in the middle of a race? You cannot guarantee that there
> > will not be another fatality in F1, and every single driver knows
> > in the back of his mind that when he straps into that car in
> > Australia on Sunday he may not climb out. Also remember that even
> > the recent good fortune of F1 did not come about until we all lost
> > Senna. Yes ALL true race fans lost Senna, just as ALL true race
> > fans lost Earnhardt. Whether I watch a particular series or not it
> > breaks my heart to learn of a serious racing accident.
> > By any stretch of the imagination Nascar has had a horrible year,
> > but it takes a truly low individual to use this tragedy as an
> > opportunity to disparage others.
> > I just had to get that off my chest. I do not belive that any one
> > particular series is better than the other, they are just
> > different. To say that F1 over any statistically meaningful
> > timespan is far safer than Nascar demonstrates nothing but
> > ignorance. If anyone ever feels inclined to do some more research
> > I would like to see the results. I would also be interested if
> > anyone knows of any good online resources for more information.
> Either way, it's still a dangerous business.
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I'm not into "something" I just want to know i nascar will react to
earnhardt's death the way F1 reacted to senna's.
We had long thread about the statistics and there is no point in
starting them again with the "driver miles" or the "driver start", I
think that racing so fats, so close to a wall, on a racetrack that
hasn't been modified if a long time in terms of safety in more
dangerous than racing on a well prepared place, will a lot of gravel
patches to slow the car before you hit an obstacle should something
goes wrong, but this is my personal point of vue, I am a bit tired of
these kind of threads "DGF is good" or "DGF is bad", now is the time
to look at the FACTS :
Fact 1: Some nascar half god died in a crash
Fact 2: There are interrogations whether this could have been
prevented (hans device, restrictor plate making for "artificially
close" races, etc...)
Question: WIll the governing body of nascar change something or not ?
that's an easy question, no implications, just yes or no...
"Wosco" <Wo...@kartracer.com> a crit dans le message news:
9Wdn6.741$ib.74...@nnrp1.ptd.net...
> JB
> "Txl" <t...@free.fr> wrote in message
> news:oH5n6.6708$l%7.11082845@nnrp4.proxad.net...
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > Ok, But F1 changed after Senna's death, will nascar change ?
> > Will they improve the safety to avoid other things like this to
> > happen or not ?
> > Did they change something already ?
> > "EvilRob" <spa...@tampabay.dot.rr.dot.com> a crit dans le
> > message news: MPG.150614685f7a2bfd98968d@news-server...
> > > While you troll about the usenet groups, why don't you do a
> > > little research or at least basic math yourself?
> > > Forgive me if this has been covered already, but I have gotten
> > > quite tired of reading the trash that these threads have
> > > spawned. I wondered if anyone has really taken a look at the
> > > numbers rather than just make grand statements with nothing to
> > > back it up.
> > > Now hear me out for a moment. I mean no disrespect to anyone
> > > (despite my opening tone) and by no means do I wish to
> > > proclaim one form of racing as superior to another. I will
> > > watch almost any form of motorsports and in my own view anyone
> > > who truly believes that one form is completely superior to
> > > another is just plain ignorant.
> > > I also do not mean to trivialize any racing accident. ANY
> > > injury or fatality is too many. This is a dangerous business
> > > and it does happen. It remains a risk in ALL forms of auto
> > > racing but the goal should always be zero serious injuries.
> > > Now if somebody can provide more accurate numbers than this,
> > > please do so.
> > > I have seen it written lately by various individuals that F1's
> > > safety record is far superior to that of Nascar. This did not
> > > ring true to me. Obviously 4 deaths in one year compared to 2
> > > in either '82 or '94 makes Nascar seem twice as bad. But
> > > Nascar and F1 seasons are not created equally.
> > > This year (according to http://www.f1-live.com/en/ ) we will
> > > have 17 F1 events, with 22 drivers, each one around 200 miles.
> > > Again this is a rough estimate, if anyone has the real
> > > mileage please correct the numbers as I would love to see
> > > them. This brings us to an estimated total of 74,800
> > > potential driver/miles raced.
> > > According to the Nascar Winston cup schedule
> > > (http://www.nascar.com/RACE/winston/schedule/) there are 39
> > > events with 43 drivers averaging (I think) just over 400 miles
> > > per event but I will use 400 as a nice round number. This is
> > > a potential 670,800 driver/miles raced.
> > > By these numbers, Nascar will cover enough driver/miles to
> > > amount to almost 9 full F1 seasons.
> > > Of course these potentials are never reached. Accidents,
> > > mechanical failures, and drivers who go get lapped and do not
> > > complete the full distance all take away from the potential
> > > maximum. I also am using these current schedules for all of
> > > my math, and not accounting for the
> > > differing schedules from year to year.
> > > Three deaths (Yes three, I'll get to that in a second) in
> > > Nascar in the amount of time (Driver/miles) that F1 has driven
> > > since 1992. Neither one looks superior using that measure.
> > > I say three because Tony Roper was not racing a cup car, I
> > > think he was racing a truck though I could be mistaken. If
> > > you quote the figure of four deaths for Nascar then you are
> > > counting other racing series that are handled by the same
> > > sanctioning body. 33 Busch races (about 250 miles each) and
> > > 24 truck races (about 200 each with 36 entries) brings the
> > > yearly Nascar total up to 16 times the driver/miles of an F1
> > > season.
> > > CNNSI:
> > > http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/motorsports/2001/daytona500/new
> > > s/20 01/02 /18/racing_deaths/
> > > Reports 10 Nascar deaths back to 1989, and 4 F1 deaths back to
> > > 1982. 1997 is the last year there was a fatality in Nascar
> > > before 2000. Since that time, Nascar has raced 3 full seasons
> > > (48 F1 seasons, in
> > > Driver/miles). Have there been fewer than 4 deaths in 48 years
> > > of Grand Prix racing? F1 does not look safe at all now.
> > > F1 has done a good job lately, if you count drivers only and
> > > not the poor guy who was killed at Monza last year, but how
> > > can you call F1 superior when they allow a spectator to run
> > > across the track in the middle of a race? You cannot
> > > guarantee that there will not be another fatality in F1, and
> > > every single driver knows in the back of his mind that when he
> > > straps into that car in Australia on Sunday he may not climb
> > > out. Also remember that even the recent good fortune of F1
> > > did not come about until we all lost Senna. Yes ALL true race
> > > fans lost Senna, just as ALL true race fans lost Earnhardt.
> > > Whether I watch a particular series or not it
> > > breaks my heart to learn of a serious racing accident.
> > > By any stretch of the imagination Nascar has had a horrible
> > > year, but it takes a truly low individual to use this tragedy
> > > as an opportunity to disparage others.
> > > I just had to get that off my chest. I do not belive that any
> > > one particular series is better than the other, they are just
> > > different. To say that F1 over any statistically meaningful
> > > timespan is far safer than Nascar demonstrates nothing but
> > > ignorance. If anyone ever feels inclined to do some more
> > > research I would like to see the results. I would also be
> > > interested if anyone knows of any good online resources for
> > > more information.
> > Either way, it's still a dangerous business.
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