rec.autos.simulators

Dear all,

It seems that some relatively "newbies", who didn't take to read either the
FAQ or to lurk a little bit on r.a.s. try to redefine our world, the
SImRacing one.

Most of us actually raced a car in their life.  Some of us are beta testers.
The majority of us here are serious people who take racing simulators like
what they are made for  _To simulate reality_.  We would all love to race in
real NASCAR team, but we can only do it in virtual reality.

Now the GPL demo is out. 4day pass, and all of a sudden, newbies and trolls
(YES TROLLS) come here and make trouble. Saying GrandPrix Legends is an
arcade game. MTM2 is a simulator. You know, stupid stuff like that.  It's
almost if those guy aren't 12year old SpiceGirl-listening AOL'ers.

Since many years, most of us (above 90%) decided in a non-real way to tell
what is a simulator and what is not.  By the reviews, previews, flames,
thoughts, opinions, etc... we dressed an "un-official" list of racing
simulator.

But what is really a simulator and what is not..  ?   <20$million question>

First of all... there is 3 basic here

1) Game engine
2) AI
3) Average Realism

Those are what you NEED to be at least considered as a simulator.  If you
don't succeed in 1 of these point, it's almost impossible to compensate by
having some better points elsewhere.

1) Game Engine.  This is the most important for serious racers, and the less
for arcade racing people.   This is what makes the car move, how it reacts
with everything that surrounds it.  This is the heart of a simulator. It's
ESSENTIAL.

2) AI .  What can we say more about Artificial Intelligence.  Since the
majority of the actual games are made for offline usage these days, AI is
still a very important point. WIthout some decent AI, it's not a serious
simulator.  This will be less important in the future, as online-platforms
will appear. The NROS is a good exemple.

3) Average realism. So you can race Monster trucks on a race track now ?
This ain't realism. You can't even change the spoiler 'cause there is no
setup. This ain't realism also.  This is the brain of the simulator.  It
polish all the 2 others.  It's the realism of the track.  Of the cars.
etc...

After considering those 3 points, most of us have dressed in our heads a
possible "un-official" list of simulators.  Here is , after reflexion, what
it is. Like I said 90% of us will agree on this, but there is always a
little part who won't agree on this.

- Indy500: The Simulator
- World Circuit
- IndyCar Racing
- Nascar Racing
- IndyCar Racing 2
- Grand Prix 2
- RAC Rally Championship
- Nascar Racing 2
- F1 Racing Simulation
- SODA Off-Road
- GP-Legends (since we may speculate at 100% that the actual title will be
like the demo)
- Burnout: Drag Racing

- Cart: Precision Racing
- TOCA
- Castrol GTX Motorcycle (speculation upon the demo)

Note that I seperated the last 3, mainly to not create some to big
discussions here.  They can be considered Simulators and Arcade games at the
same time.  I know I'm so stupid I probably forgot 1 important, it's late in
the night, so sorry.

Think whatever you think, those can't be considered STRICLY as Arcade games.
And please, newbies, don't mess with us. It could be dangerous for your
health <gg>.  We care less about you than Mr. Lester <g>.

Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Sponsored by http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)

Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking)

--"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

For me, a simulator must have.....

1) an *accurate* game engine (we agree!)
2) fairly accurate AI (we agree again)
3) Realism (and again)

The game engine must of course,be realistic and model the actual
physics of the car/track/weather in question, and behave in a way
that should be expected after lots of practice (as in the real
world).

The AI must also be as realistic as possible and model the other car
drivers as closely as possible, indicating different characteristics
where applicable (again as in the real world).

The Realism aspect must be included or you could have Touring Cars
racing on the Moon, or Mars (or wherever it is in the game?)
Which is one of the reasons I think TOCA is *not* a simulator.
(even though I am a huge TOCA fan).

And simulators *must* have set-up options. (Once again lacking in
TOCA?) Not only is this as per the real world, but it allows
different drivers with differing driving styles to adjust the cars as
they wish.

BTW, GPL rocks......

*Peter*  8-)

Very funny post ymenard. I'm laughing because one of the people you are
apparently calling a "newbie" and "arcader" is me because of my response to
an MTM2 posting a little ways down the list. First of all, I'm hardly new
here. At least 6 months now. Is that long enough to be part of the club? Oh,
please let me in. I beta test. I guarantee I am just as much of a
sim enthusiast as yourself. I'm very good at them too. The ONLY criticism
I've had of GPL is that there isn't going to be weather effects. I also
politely
ASKED if any of the older guys here could confirm that the '67 cars drifted
as much as they do in the sim. I wouldn't know for sure because I was born
in '67 and I haven't seen any film from that time to reference. I have no
problem admitting that I don't know everything.

You're jumping on the MTM2 comments with some gusto for some reason. I said
that MTM2 will set a standard for racing games/sims for a number of reasons.
Don't be surprised as the weeks roll by that many, many others don't agree.
I'm not the first to say, or want to say, this. Just a few are
the incredible graphics engine, sound, driving model, force feedback (best
use of it yet), and much improved internet play. You don't think that these
are important isssues for sim racers? MTM2 was beta tested by a
group almost completely made up of sim enthusiasts. Many of them post
regularly here at r.a.s. and operate web sites devoted to sims.There was a
member of the racing sim/game press that we all are familiar with as well. I
had never even seen
the first MTM so I really wasn't expecting all that much from MTM2 (Monster
Trucks?) but when I saw the first beta, I was blown away. I've since tried
MTM and it doesn't even compare to MTM2.

Ever heard of F1RS? I bet you think it's a pretty damn good sim, right? Do
you know how and why it was created? Because of an excellent ARCADE racing
game called POD by Ubi Soft. F1RS was based on the POD engine. If you don't
believe me then ask the F1RS Project Manager Peggy Desplats. She said that
the reason Ubi Soft made F1RS was because they had the POD engine available
to them and wanted to continue to make good use of it. Does F1RS stink now
because you just found out that it is the bastard son of an arcade game? <g>
I believe most of the same production group that created POD also worked on
F1RS.

When I or others bring up MTM2 in weeks to come, it will be because many of
it's components should and will, IMO, be used as a yardstick for other
sims/games. It is relevant for many reasons.

I think you included our small MTM2 thread in your criticisms because you
are pissed at others who are knocking a sim you like. It's possible to take
all this sim business TOO far. You want to read my thoughts on whether sims
are as real as you seem to believe, then go ahead and check my posts of the
last few days. I haven't raced cars, but I have raced motocross motorcycles
and there isn't a sim now, or for a very, very, very long time that will
ever come close to recreating for me what it's like to actually ride a
motorcycle (or car). Lighten up a little.

Dave    (DmndDave)

It seems that GPL will forever be in the TOCA-category....where there seems
to be an even number of people that think its a sim and those who think its
arcade.  No problem with that though.

Ymenard,

If you have the time, would you mind responding to my earlier post in this
thread?

Dave