rec.autos.simulators

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

Tim

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by Tim » Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:23:32

For the collective RAS wisdom-

I have noticed that many times in racing games, particularly F1, the
sensation of elevation changes are more obvious when watching on
television than when you are driving in a game, especially when using
the***pit view.  I was wondering if it is because when you are in the
car everything becomes relative and things seem to flatten out (seems
that way during races on tv when using in-car cams too), or is it
harder to create dramatic elevation changes?

Also, when watching open wheel racing, often the CART street courses
are called "bumpy", and I was wondering if any games do this well. Or
do you think that more vibration is annoying rather then immersive?

Tim

Thom j

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by Thom j » Tue, 19 Jun 2001 05:01:38

Odd Tim?? Most of the sims I run I see the up-down over-under &
really feel the bumps [via FF wheel] What sims do you run that look
"flat'ish?" I have a few like this but not many...
I have had this ever since Micropose World Circuit.. This has been
awhile too...lol Thom_j.

| For the collective RAS wisdom-
|
| I have noticed that many times in racing games, particularly F1, the
| sensation of elevation changes are more obvious when watching on
| television than when you are driving in a game, especially when using
| the***pit view.  I was wondering if it is because when you are in the
| car everything becomes relative and things seem to flatten out (seems
| that way during races on tv when using in-car cams too), or is it
| harder to create dramatic elevation changes?
|
| Also, when watching open wheel racing, often the CART street courses
| are called "bumpy", and I was wondering if any games do this well. Or
| do you think that more vibration is annoying rather then immersive?
|
| Tim

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Dave Henri

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by Dave Henri » Tue, 19 Jun 2001 05:09:11

  The 'bumpiest' tracks that I'm aware of are the SCGT and F1cs tracks.  The
papyrus tracks seem to model elevation better but not the smaller bumps.
Best overall tracks...(sorry folks to beat this dead cow again) are the AMA
Superbike tracks...not the prettiest but they really have the accuracy down.
dave henrie

> Odd Tim?? Most of the sims I run I see the up-down over-under &
> really feel the bumps [via FF wheel] What sims do you run that look
> "flat'ish?" I have a few like this but not many...
> I have had this ever since Micropose World Circuit.. This has been
> awhile too...lol Thom_j.


> | For the collective RAS wisdom-
> |
> | I have noticed that many times in racing games, particularly F1, the
> | sensation of elevation changes are more obvious when watching on
> | television than when you are driving in a game, especially when using
> | the***pit view.  I was wondering if it is because when you are in the
> | car everything becomes relative and things seem to flatten out (seems
> | that way during races on tv when using in-car cams too), or is it
> | harder to create dramatic elevation changes?
> |
> | Also, when watching open wheel racing, often the CART street courses
> | are called "bumpy", and I was wondering if any games do this well. Or
> | do you think that more vibration is annoying rather then immersive?
> |
> | Tim

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Kevin Gavit

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by Kevin Gavit » Tue, 19 Jun 2001 05:32:26


I've always gotten the feeling that the AMA tracks used a pallete that makes
things look like a live TV feed, rather than what you would actually see.

Kinda weird from a first person perspective.

KFG

Thom j

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by Thom j » Tue, 19 Jun 2001 05:46:56

Dave, SBK2001 is pretty good too!! I Like It!! :-)

|   The 'bumpiest' tracks that I'm aware of are the SCGT and F1cs tracks.
The
| papyrus tracks seem to model elevation better but not the smaller bumps.
| Best overall tracks...(sorry folks to beat this dead cow again) are the
AMA
| Superbike tracks...not the prettiest but they really have the accuracy
down.
| dave henrie

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Txl

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by Txl » Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:19:27

well F1RC sure has very accurate tracks, in terms of elevation, bankings and
so on, although the "bumps" could be better, but the track layout from A1
and Hockenheim is splendid, the banking in the sachs kurve is really that
big.
Race15

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by Race15 » Wed, 20 Jun 2001 06:20:58

I remember the first time I ran down pit road in the original "Indy 500
Simulation."  It really put you in the "drivers seat" when you came off of the
smooth racing surface in turn four and onto the VERY bumpy pit road surface.
Not that it has anything to do with anything, this thread just made me
reminisce! :)

Michael Loos
Gasoline Alley...The Fastest Show In Radio!
Nationwide Saturdays at 10:00 pm Eastern - 7:00 pm Pacific
Find your local affiliate at
www.GasolineAlleyOnline.net

Peter Ive

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by Peter Ive » Wed, 20 Jun 2001 03:59:31



In fact I've heard many a tv commentator or track officionado at the
race say that the tv pictures don't do the elevation changes justice
either.  They've said something like, 'It's not until you walk the track
that you realise how dramatic some of these elevation changes really
are.'

<snip>
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -14.08

Dan Belch

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by Dan Belch » Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:55:28

When I went to Charl-uh, Lowe's Motor Speedway for the first time last month, I
was amazed by how steep the banking in the corners was compared to what it
looked like on TV.

-----------------------------------------
Dan Belcher
Team Racing Unlimited
http://simcrash.00game.com

ymenar

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by ymenar » Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:27:42


> well F1RC sure has very accurate tracks, in terms of elevation, bankings
and
> so on, although the "bumps" could be better, but the track layout from A1
> and Hockenheim is splendid, the banking in the sachs kurve is really that
> big.

They are still nothing compared to the tracks from AMA Superbike.  I'm
telling you, they are quite something.  They are really THAT incredible...
(and I disagree that the A1-Ring is realistic in F1RC, turn 3 is really a
patch turn for the wrong accuracy of the track, it's there to adjust the
elevation of the rest of the track).

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Txl

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by Txl » Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:57:06

well, sorry francois but I WAS in austria 10 days ago WITH my laptop, the
game and we made a lap on the team scooter to check the accuracy of the
track, it is really perfect...

I was in Hockenheim in March but didn't have the game at that moment,
however th Papenburg stadium is very much the same as the Hockenheim one and
I've made a lap WALKING there last week-end, and the layout is once more,
perfect.

Never tried that supercross game you mention.




> > well F1RC sure has very accurate tracks, in terms of elevation, bankings
> and
> > so on, although the "bumps" could be better, but the track layout from
A1
> > and Hockenheim is splendid, the banking in the sachs kurve is really
that
> > big.

> They are still nothing compared to the tracks from AMA Superbike.  I'm
> telling you, they are quite something.  They are really THAT incredible...
> (and I disagree that the A1-Ring is realistic in F1RC, turn 3 is really a
> patch turn for the wrong accuracy of the track, it's there to adjust the
> elevation of the rest of the track).

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...
> -- http://www.ymenard.com/
> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
> Corporation - helping America into the New World...

ymenar

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by ymenar » Thu, 21 Jun 2001 01:33:38


> well, sorry francois but I WAS in austria 10 days ago WITH my laptop, the
> game and we made a lap on the team scooter to check the accuracy of the
> track, it is really perfect...

Well, I will still disagree with that, just my opinion here about Turn 3/4
(the double apex right turn) are slightly a little off, but not much.  I'll
completely agree with you that the rest of the track is superb.  Still
doesn't make for the problems the software has ;)

AMA Superbike is the "major" American biking series in the USA.  It's not
really a good software, but the tracks in it (Road Atlanta, Road America,
Mid-Ohio, Sears Point, Brainerd, Willow Springs, etc..) are so incredible my
jaw dropped when I first tried the software.  F1RC is nothing compared to
them.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Tom Pabs

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by Tom Pabs » Thu, 21 Jun 2001 02:19:15

Elevation, banking, camber, slope......particularly on road courses....in
the braking zones.....are critical to fast laps....and good race setups.  As
a driver, you don't get an appropriate "feel" for these elements from within
the***pit.  This is because the normal "references" our brains
need......are mostly absent once we put on our helmets....and climb into the
***pit (including open***pits....but to a lesser extent only than closed
***pits).  This is primarily due to the artificial horizon induced by the
dashboard....reference for our eyes/brains....and the restricted peripheral
vision induced by racing helmets and the race car***pits themselves.  To a
very great extent.....this applies to sim racing as well as to real-world
racing.  And, this may be the reason we don't seem to get the same "feel and
perspective" for the elevation changes....and track banking....in our sim
racing as we do when visiting the real-world track for the first time.

When I was running in the ESCORT Endurance Series in the late 1980's......my
first year on the tour....meant I was being introduced to new race tracks
almost at every event.  I was a totally rookie in pro racing at the
time........so I figured what I needed to do was to follow the routines used
by all the veteran drivers.....to come up to race speeds when ever we began
a weekend event at a new race track.  The "race teams" usually began
arriving at the track on Wednesdays....and the drivers usually showed up on
Wednesday nights or Thursday mornings.  The first "practice sessions"
usually began Thursday afternoon.  I noticed that you could hardly ever find
any of the drivers on Wednesday night or Thursday morning.....anywhere else
but out walking the track!  And, the ones most dedicated drivers at doing
this "walking of the track...notebook in hand.....totally alone and without
distraction"......where the guys who also had the most experience at the
tracks.....they were the veteran drivers........not the ones with the least
experience, us rookies!  That was a "lesson" for me......and I never forgot
this.  Not oddly......those were the same drivers who first started setting
competitive lap speeds......and first dialed in their race setups.....in the
early practice sessions!

Everyone had different techniques for these "track walks"....as I learned to
call them.  And, some of the veteran drivers were better at it than others.
I learned some great stuff from Peter Cunningham........a veteran driver
even back in the late 80's.  Peter told me that no matter how many races
he'd done at a particular track......he always did the same "track walk"
routine......even at tracks he'd run just a few weeks prior (in a different
race series).  He said (without going into great detail).....that it "reset"
his mind's eye for the current track......banking, surface texture, turn
camber and so forth....preparing his senses and hand/eye coordination for
racing on that particular track for the next several days.  He would even
stop walking when ever he got into the braking zone of a turn that was at
the end of a mid to high-speed straight.  He'd actually carefully feel the
track surface....with his bare hands.....crouched down sometimes in a
crawling position on his hands and knees........particularly looking for the
small stones that were uncovered from the tarmac or concrete (depending on
the track surface type)....for how much the stones were ruffed...or polished
from previous races.  He'd note the stone surfaces....moving his initial
braking markers up track (earlier) for smooth stones.....and down track
(later) for rough ones....and all variations in-between.  Of course, he'd
also make note of the more obvious things like any new track patches that
might have been laid since his last race at that track!  It will be of no
surprise to anyone that I tell you that Peter Cunningham was almost always
the first driver....and the earliest to come up to competitive race
speeds.......and he always contended for the "pole" on Friday afternoon
qualifying runs.

Racing sims are of course....not yet produced with that kind of detail
(although I believe the day is not far off that they will be).  But, there
are still "lessons" to learn in this type of thing......when visiting a new
sim track.....or preparing for a league race at a track you've not raced on
recently.  A virtual "track walk" can be done by making several slow speed
(I use first gear only) laps.....from in-car, and various F-10 type
views.....just to get my mind "reset" to the particular track before I start
running race speed laps.  This only takes a few minutes.....and I've found
it to be as valuable in sim racing as it became in real-world racing for me.
Some of you might think this is stupid.  Well, lots of drivers thought what
Pete Cunningham did was "stupid" too!  You can "take or leave the lesson"
for what its worth to you.

Regards,

Tom

Thom j

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by Thom j » Thu, 21 Jun 2001 04:52:08

Well Tom try all this on a race bike!! [dirt or road] Then you'll feel all
the elevations, bumps. grooves, moggles etc..lol :-)

| Elevation, banking, camber, slope......particularly on road courses....in
<snipped for space>
| Pete Cunningham did was "stupid" too!  You can "take or leave the lesson"
| for what its worth to you.
| Regards,
| Tom

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Eldre

Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

by Eldre » Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:47:26



>Racing sims are of course....not yet produced with that kind of detail
>(although I believe the day is not far off that they will be).  But, there
>are still "lessons" to learn in this type of thing......when visiting a new
>sim track.....or preparing for a league race at a track you've not raced on
>recently.  A virtual "track walk" can be done by making several slow speed
>(I use first gear only) laps.....from in-car, and various F-10 type
>views.....just to get my mind "reset" to the particular track before I start
>running race speed laps.  This only takes a few minutes.....and I've found
>it to be as valuable in sim racing as it became in real-world racing for me.
>Some of you might think this is stupid.  Well, lots of drivers thought what
>Pete Cunningham did was "stupid" too!  You can "take or leave the lesson"
>for what its worth to you.

I don't think it's stupid to make 'recon' laps of a track you don't know.
Problem is, I never seem to learn anything that helps...

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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