rec.autos.simulators

Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

Stingr

Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

by Stingr » Fri, 23 Mar 2001 06:48:03

    Look guys, there is no doubt in my mind that someone has to figure out a
way to make online racing more similar to TEN's heyday.  The best scenario
for WON at present is lackluster, crapy unsatisfying races.  sure they can
leave WON up on the free public side, but there needs to be a per month fee
based side somewhere!

    I refer to TEN as a too pricey version of what I mean, but still the
principle is usually tried and true...  If it costs nothing, you get
nothing, and nobody cares how much time they waste of others, whom it does
mean something to.  I mean every Tom,***, and Harry is out to play
whatever is out there if its for free, wherever and however they can get it
for free.  That is the problem, FREE lets Crashmadness and his buddy
Warpster, with no real interest in racing, to just get in there to mess with
us all.  But back when TEN cost up to 15 bucks a month to race, these twerps
spent their FREE time pursuing Mechwarrior or porche unleashed instead.

    So Wouldn't it make sense that for maybe 25 bucks a year to somewhere
would be CHEAP enough for us who care, but high enough for the
loser_non_racing_play_in_the_park_cause_it_was_there kind of folks to stay
away?   I mean in Kansas they charge me to use the state park now...  even
though I pay taxes  but the park is cleaner and nicer now it seems, if for
nothing else they budget that money for upkeep and enforcement of rules!!

My $$ worth

Kevin Anderso

Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

by Kevin Anderso » Fri, 23 Mar 2001 07:14:15

I am not sure what your complaining about. I have no trouble with using
Seirra. If your connection is warpy, well then improve your connection and
stay away from guys who are hosting on an average PC. If your races are
filled with Kids or  newbies, then again choose your race carefully, Join a
league. I recently joined a couple leagues and they run practice races about
every night. I don't ever need to enter another pick up race if I don't want
to. But I do, And I enjoy them. They are great practice for dealing with
lapping cars and avoiding wrecks. TEN had its problems also. Many league
races were rained out due to TEN. But now, we use our own servers and rarely
have that problem. My connections are the best they have been. And best of
all I don't have to pay TEN to race.  We used to Pay TEN every  month and
their plan was to pay additionally for the NROS when it came out.

I hope it improves for you, Its not as bad as it seems, Just choose your
server and your race wisely. And get a real good qual setup, :)

--
Kevin Anderson


Dave Henri

Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

by Dave Henri » Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:36:05

  I've got several people looking for N4 leagues...are there ANY?
dave henrie

Tom Olive

Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

by Tom Olive » Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:24:47

The problem isn't with the cost, the problem is you can't setup your own
race. Looping random open races, even on Ten, would still suck. You need to
be able to setup your own race and pick people who care about the driving as
much as you do. There are lots of those types guys out there, but getting
them together in a race is just about impossible with the current system. In
every race on Won I see at least 10 or more quality guys in the race.
Unfortunately it only takes 2 or more morons to ruin it for everyone else.

Tom


Tim

Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

by Tim » Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:13:51



[snip]

I'm guessing you never played Ultima Online or Everquest?
Both are pay to play,  a heck of a lot more than 25 bucks a year, and
both are *** Central.

I don't want to just sound like I'm bagging on your idea, but I don't
think its the answer. Doing private races with people you know works
best. It takes a while to build up a group of guys, but you're in the
best possible place to find them.

Tim

Tom Pabs

Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

by Tom Pabs » Fri, 23 Mar 2001 18:51:38

Wow....four years later.....different sim drivers (but not all
different).....same complaints!

"Pick up racing" is never going to be "ideal"......and "league racing" will
always be the best choice, regarding the "quality" of the competitors and
the racing.

Although I believe Papyrus has provided an excellent set of tools and
procedures for improving online racing (passworded races, a driver rating
system....and so forth), they have failed to provide one or the other....of
the necessary "tools" needed for serious Internet-based sim racing to take
place.  They are:

1.  The ability for "users" to charge for services of running leagues,
establishing broadband racing league servers (this cost money, a lot of
money...and a relatively inexpensive, cable or DSL line does not have enough
upside bandwidth to hold a serious league race......30 or more
drivers....requires around 600 kbps...upside bandwidth); and/or,

2.  Provide a serious online "driver licensing" system.....similar to
several used in real-world racing (SCCA for amateur racing...and NASCAR for
professional racing...would be two prime examples).  An "Internet"
cookie......attached to your login name, signifying your racing license
level (Novice, National, Pro, etc.)....and allowing only like licensed
drivers to enter races ....or take part in league racing events.....wouldn't
fix everything 100%....it certainly would go along way to fixing the "mess"
you get now with a typical Sierra.com "pick up race."  Wouldn't it?  And,
"yes"...there would be administrative problems with something like
this.....but those are not insurmountable in scope or detail.

While Papyrus' EULA has mostly valid provisions, the provision against
"making money" using one of their products is probably not.  I have shown
this provision to several Internet attorneys here in the Bay Area - Silicon
Valley.........and have had several discussions with more than one Havas
"legal department" attorney....the two groups are at opposing odds on the
matter (for obvious reasons, Havas thinks the provision is valid).  That
provision, as described by several attorneys who I have shown it to......say
its tantamount to Hoyle saying, "You can buy our playing cards to play
poker...but you can't play poker for real money with them."  Or, Microsoft
saying, "You can't use Word.....to write letters that make you money."
Needless to say, the ongoing "saber rattling" from Papyrus, Sierra and Havas
legal departments, scares off most people who attempt to provide "expensive"
services for racing (leagues, broadband servers and Internet connection
lines, racing schools, licensing programs, etc.)....just because the "cost
of defense" is formidable.  They count on that sort of thing...you know?
But, if a class action suit were to be filed, on behalf of N4 "users".....I
doubt seriously if Papyrus, Sierra or Havas legal...would ever allow it to
go to trial.....because they know they'd lose.  There's just no legal
ground....no reasonable legal basis.....for that provision.....not unless
Papyrus was running leagues.....racing schools......licensing programs...and
charging (meaning making money) for those services.  If they are not doing
it....then they are not being harmed or damaged in anyway....by someone else
doing it.

However, that does not take into account what restrictions.....are imposed
on Papyrus.....in order to obtain the various licenses they need to put a
serious racing sim like NASCAR 4.....on the market.  We are not privy to the
details of those agreements.  My bet is, Papyrus has been a "whimp" in those
negotiations....and the scope of the their "license" is incredibly narrow
(meaning, they are allowed to sell a racing game software...and that is it).
One can only wonder how many real-world race track owners and groups,
privately laugh at the whimps.....who continue to pay them for the
"likeness" of their race tracks.  When, in fact, the track owners would
probably agree to pay them.......to have their tracks in a good racing sim
because it advertises their products, and strengthens their fan base!  Go
figure!

Where does this all lead us?  Probably nowhere.....as long as we are talking
about a Papyrus racing simulation (game).  Come to think of it, Papyrus kind
of reminds me of some of the old railroad companies of the early 20th
Century.  The ones that you've never heard of......because while they were
"giants in their time"....they died out like the dinosaurs because they
didn't realize what business they were in.  They "thought" they were in the
railroad business.  Others, went on to become world-wide
conglomerates......because they knew what business they were in....and it
wasn't the railroad business!  They knew they were in the "transportation
business"......and they went on to become airlines, and shipping companies
and parcel post companies and on and on and on!  And, these same companies
knew how to value their assets.  They knew their greatest asset value....was
not in railroad cars and locomotives.....it was in real estate!  Papyrus,
you are in the "leisure-time, entertainment business".....wake up!

Oh well.....guess I'll go see if I can get into a decent pick up race
online.  See you guys later?

Tom Pabst

Ed Solhei

Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

by Ed Solhei » Sat, 24 Mar 2001 01:48:52

Although all your points are valid and good Tom, imho the biggest problem is
the drivers lack of understanding.

Online racing isn't about "rubbin', nor will it ever be possible to pull of
real-life "moves" online.... the lag and difficulties with crash detection
prevent this.

League-racing work, because here people drive to a given set of rules and
standard.  Another very important factor is knowing your competitors...
knowing their stongholds and weaknesses.

But perhaps the most important thing is the respect league racers will have
for eachother. This is something you'll never see in a 15mins pick-up race.

ed_


> Wow....four years later.....different sim drivers (but not all
> different).....same complaints! <BIG SNIP!>

Karaya On

Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

by Karaya On » Sat, 24 Mar 2001 07:13:58

Ed - you hit it on the head right there. Mutual respect.

************************************
  Dave Pawlikowski

  www.cushdrive.com
  www.luftwaffe-experten.com
  ICQ - 103134094
"Ah, the Luftwaffe.. The Washington
   Generals of The History Channel."
            Homer Simpson
************************************
" >

Rob Adam

Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

by Rob Adam » Sat, 24 Mar 2001 07:21:10

I've only done 2 league races (in GPL) so far, plus a bunch of practise runs
with the league guys, but I have to agree totally. When you realize that
you're gonna be running with the same group week after week, you tend to
think about your actions a lot more than when racing with a bunch of
anonymous virtual opponents.

If I win I want it to be because I won clean, and if I lose I know it's for
the same reason.


> Ed - you hit it on the head right there. Mutual respect.

> ************************************
>   Dave Pawlikowski

>   www.cushdrive.com
>   www.luftwaffe-experten.com
>   ICQ - 103134094
> "Ah, the Luftwaffe.. The Washington
>    Generals of The History Channel."
>             Homer Simpson
> ************************************
> " >
> > But perhaps the most important thing is the respect league racers will
> have
> > for eachother. This is something you'll never see in a 15mins pick-up
> race.

> > ed_

George Lewi

Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

by George Lewi » Sun, 25 Mar 2001 09:58:15

And if you DO take someone out, or get taken out, that it wasn't on
purpose.  Hey, things DO happen... I HATE taking someone out, even in
offline racing.  It's just not good racing ettiquette.  And from
personal experience - you do that in real life once or twice and
you'll get "popped" later on by the other guy.  I've seen THAT happen
a few times :)



>I've only done 2 league races (in GPL) so far, plus a bunch of practise runs
>with the league guys, but I have to agree totally. When you realize that
>you're gonna be running with the same group week after week, you tend to
>think about your actions a lot more than when racing with a bunch of
>anonymous virtual opponents.

>If I win I want it to be because I won clean, and if I lose I know it's for
>the same reason.



>> Ed - you hit it on the head right there. Mutual respect.

>> ************************************
>>   Dave Pawlikowski

>>   www.cushdrive.com
>>   www.luftwaffe-experten.com
>>   ICQ - 103134094
>> "Ah, the Luftwaffe.. The Washington
>>    Generals of The History Channel."
>>             Homer Simpson
>> ************************************
>> " >
>> > But perhaps the most important thing is the respect league racers will
>> have
>> > for eachother. This is something you'll never see in a 15mins pick-up
>> race.

>> > ed_

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Scott B. Huste

Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

by Scott B. Huste » Sat, 24 Mar 2001 10:47:16

Running leagues in the current online environment is nuts.

--
Scott B. Husted
PA-Scott
ICQ# 4395450


>   I've got several people looking for N4 leagues...are there ANY?
> dave henrie


> > I am not sure what your complaining about. I have no trouble with using
> > Seirra. If your connection is warpy, well then improve your connection
and
> > stay away from guys who are hosting on an average PC. If your races are
> > filled with Kids or  newbies, then again choose your race carefully,
Join
> a
> > league. I recently joined a couple leagues ((ssnniippss))

Tom Pabs

Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

by Tom Pabs » Sat, 24 Mar 2001 11:29:59

Ed....I couldn't agree more with you on all points.

TP

Larr

Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

by Larr » Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:53:51

The problem on Sierra isn't the warpy connections.  It's the warpy
boneheaded people.

-Larry


> I am not sure what your complaining about. I have no trouble with using
> Seirra. If your connection is warpy, well then improve your connection and
> stay away from guys who are hosting on an average PC. If your races are
> filled with Kids or  newbies, then again choose your race carefully, Join
a
> league. I recently joined a couple leagues and they run practice races
about
> every night. I don't ever need to enter another pick up race if I don't
want
> to. But I do, And I enjoy them. They are great practice for dealing with
> lapping cars and avoiding wrecks. TEN had its problems also. Many league
> races were rained out due to TEN. But now, we use our own servers and
rarely
> have that problem. My connections are the best they have been. And best of
> all I don't have to pay TEN to race.  We used to Pay TEN every  month and
> their plan was to pay additionally for the NROS when it came out.

> I hope it improves for you, Its not as bad as it seems, Just choose your
> server and your race wisely. And get a real good qual setup, :)

> --
> Kevin Anderson



> >     Look guys, there is no doubt in my mind that someone has to figure
out
> a
> > way to make online racing more similar to TEN's heyday.  The best
scenario
> > for WON at present is lackluster, crapy unsatisfying races.  sure they
can
> > leave WON up on the free public side, but there needs to be a per month
> fee
> > based side somewhere!

> >     I refer to TEN as a too pricey version of what I mean, but still the
> > principle is usually tried and true...  If it costs nothing, you get
> > nothing, and nobody cares how much time they waste of others, whom it
does
> > mean something to.  I mean every Tom,***, and Harry is out to play
> > whatever is out there if its for free, wherever and however they can get
> it
> > for free.  That is the problem, FREE lets Crashmadness and his buddy
> > Warpster, with no real interest in racing, to just get in there to mess
> with
> > us all.  But back when TEN cost up to 15 bucks a month to race, these
> twerps
> > spent their FREE time pursuing Mechwarrior or porche unleashed instead.

> >     So Wouldn't it make sense that for maybe 25 bucks a year to
somewhere
> > would be CHEAP enough for us who care, but high enough for the
> > loser_non_racing_play_in_the_park_cause_it_was_there kind of folks to
stay
> > away?   I mean in Kansas they charge me to use the state park now...
even
> > though I pay taxes  but the park is cleaner and nicer now it seems, if
for
> > nothing else they budget that money for upkeep and enforcement of
rules!!

> > My $$ worth


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