rec.autos.simulators

Papy Demo...

Jim Moor

Papy Demo...

by Jim Moor » Thu, 18 Feb 1999 04:00:00

John,

I always make a point of reading your post as I appreciate your perspective and
wit.  I must admit and reply that this takes the cake.  Anus and***oris!  Is
"Boss Hog" a not so subtle "Deliverance" reference?  He does resemble Ned
Beatty.  As Jim Rome (a nationally syndicated U.S. sports radio talk show host)
would say, "rack him!"

I'm out.

Jim


> On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:10:55 -0000, "Tony Rickard"

> On the subject of the Dukes of Hazzard, can anyone explain to me why
> their friends were named so lewdly? I'm thinking specifically of***
> and***oris (okay, they were Enos and Cleetus but you get my drift).

> Cheers!
> John

Michael E. Carve

Papy Demo...

by Michael E. Carve » Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:00:00


% I agree with you 100% John (again - heck this is getting boring), the GPL
% engine is so good at handling direction changes, braking & acceleration
% effects that enhancements of this engine would not be fully utilised in a
% Nascar sim (except for pit stops & recovering from wrecks).

I think you are under-estimating the form of racing NASCAR is.  Yeh,
it's mostly ovals, but each one is unique and requires a completely
different approach.  I think that is what the new physics engine will
finally provide us with.  Think about Bristol or Martinsville...  While
Pocono doesn't have the double Lesmos, I hazard to guess that in real
life, mastering this track is very similar to Monza in 1967.  Don't tell
me that Darlington doesn't require subtle body rolls which are
controlled by subtle throttle and brake control...  

I say, hold this kind of judgement until you see the proof in the
pudding.

% Now I know we are going to upset a lot of our friends across the water who
% just love Nascar to bits, but like you I would put Nascar way down the list
% as a flagship for an auto sim engine.

While it may seem that NASCAR is Papyrus' flagship, it's not and never
was.  It just happens to be the one product that brings home the bacon
so we can have things like Grand Prix Legends.  No way in hell, would we
have seen the time, money, and effort pumped into the development of
Grand Prix Legends, had NASCAR not been footing the bill.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see some other racing genres wrapped
around Papy's engine.  As it is, I am looking forward to CART much more
than I am NASCAR. . .

% The prospect of N3 just doesn't e*** me - I'd rather the resources were
% pumped into ICR3, or any number of open wheel or saloon car racing titles.
% What about on-line rallycross for testing friendships?

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Anthony Bullo

Papy Demo...

by Anthony Bullo » Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:00:00



Cars are from 1967, now that makes GP3's 1996 season look positively
cutting edge!! lol

:P

John Walla

Papy Demo...

by John Walla » Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:00:00

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:41:27 GMT, "Michael E. Carver"


>I think you are under-estimating the form of racing NASCAR is.  Yeh,
>it's mostly ovals, but each one is unique and requires a completely
>different approach.  I think that is what the new physics engine will
>finally provide us with.  Think about Bristol or Martinsville...  While
>Pocono doesn't have the double Lesmos, I hazard to guess that in real
>life, mastering this track is very similar to Monza in 1967.  Don't tell
>me that Darlington doesn't require subtle body rolls which are
>controlled by subtle throttle and brake control...  

>I say, hold this kind of judgement until you see the proof in the
>pudding.

In no way would I deride NASCAR and say that it is "undeserving" of
being simulated, the point was simply that if you want to showcase a
new physics model it is far from being the number one option.

Think, for example, of BTCC - light, nimble, fast accelerating,
multiple car types, front, rear and four wheel drive, tracks from
smooth to bumpy, flat to undulating, fast to twisty. Wet driving,
large range of temperatures, 9 or 10 different engines and handling
models, different types of races, from short sprints to longer runs
with refuelling.

I think NASCAR well simulated around Sears Point would be (will be)
great, but I'd still rather see a Champ car around Road America, an F3
car at Macao, an F1 car round Suzuka, Touring cars at Brands Hatch,
Sportscars at Lime Rock, it's a big list...!

Is the above not a contradiction? NASCAR is "not" the flagship yet
we've seen four different versions, trackpacks, it brings in all the
money and footed the bill for the "GPL engine" development.

I tend to think of GPL as a development engine for N3 with the new
engine, so I suppose really we should consider GPL as using the N3
engine rather than vice-versa! :-)

Cheers!
John

Ed Coy

Papy Demo...

by Ed Coy » Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:00:00

The almighty dollar must speak now.  NASCAR "is" the most popular form of
racing in North America and that is what drives the beast.  It only makes
sense.  If a new physics model was put on something else that didn't bring
return on investment, it would have been done only for fun.

--
Ed Coye
Coye Consultants, Inc.


>On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:41:27 GMT, "Michael E. Carver"

>>I think you are under-estimating the form of racing NASCAR is.  Yeh,
>>it's mostly ovals, but each one is unique and requires a completely
>>different approach.  I think that is what the new physics engine will
>>finally provide us with.  Think about Bristol or Martinsville...  While
>>Pocono doesn't have the double Lesmos, I hazard to guess that in real
>>life, mastering this track is very similar to Monza in 1967.  Don't tell
>>me that Darlington doesn't require subtle body rolls which are
>>controlled by subtle throttle and brake control...

>>I say, hold this kind of judgement until you see the proof in the
>>pudding.

>In no way would I deride NASCAR and say that it is "undeserving" of
>being simulated, the point was simply that if you want to showcase a
>new physics model it is far from being the number one option.

>Think, for example, of BTCC - light, nimble, fast accelerating,
>multiple car types, front, rear and four wheel drive, tracks from
>smooth to bumpy, flat to undulating, fast to twisty. Wet driving,
>large range of temperatures, 9 or 10 different engines and handling
>models, different types of races, from short sprints to longer runs
>with refuelling.

>I think NASCAR well simulated around Sears Point would be (will be)
>great, but I'd still rather see a Champ car around Road America, an F3
>car at Macao, an F1 car round Suzuka, Touring cars at Brands Hatch,
>Sportscars at Lime Rock, it's a big list...!

>>While it may seem that NASCAR is Papyrus' flagship, it's not and never
>>was.  It just happens to be the one product that brings home the bacon
>>so we can have things like Grand Prix Legends.  No way in hell, would we
>>have seen the time, money, and effort pumped into the development of
>>Grand Prix Legends, had NASCAR not been footing the bill.

>Is the above not a contradiction? NASCAR is "not" the flagship yet
>we've seen four different versions, trackpacks, it brings in all the
>money and footed the bill for the "GPL engine" development.

>I tend to think of GPL as a development engine for N3 with the new
>engine, so I suppose really we should consider GPL as using the N3
>engine rather than vice-versa! :-)

>Cheers!
>John

Goy Larse

Papy Demo...

by Goy Larse » Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:00:00


> Any suggestions for tracks?

> 1) Bullit (of course)
> 2) The French Connection
> 3) The Driver (with Rhino Neal)

Yes please, got it on tape, watched it xxx number of times, there are
some really cool scenes in this one

How about "Shaker Run" with Cliff Robertson, movie stinks, but there's
some good driving in there, made in New Zealand or something ?

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

Michael E. Carve

Papy Demo...

by Michael E. Carve » Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:00:00


% In no way would I deride NASCAR and say that it is "undeserving" of
% being simulated, the point was simply that if you want to showcase a
% new physics model it is far from being the number one option.

No arguement here, I wholeheartedly agree....

% Think, for example, of BTCC - light, nimble, fast accelerating,
% multiple car types, front, rear and four wheel drive, tracks from
% smooth to bumpy, flat to undulating, fast to twisty. Wet driving,
% large range of temperatures, 9 or 10 different engines and handling
% models, different types of races, from short sprints to longer runs
% with refuelling.

% Is the above not a contradiction? NASCAR is "not" the flagship yet
% we've seen four different versions, trackpacks, it brings in all the
% money and footed the bill for the "GPL engine" development.

% I tend to think of GPL as a development engine for N3 with the new
% engine, so I suppose really we should consider GPL as using the N3
% engine rather than vice-versa! :-)

It's a "business" decision.  I feel confident that if you sat Dave
Kaemmer down at the nearest pub and had a heart-to-heart talk, you would
know that his real passion would be for open wheel racing ala CART and
not NASCAR.  Papyrus is just doing the same thing you and I do, work at
a job (hopefully one we can get some enjoyment from), so we can earn the
money to do the things that we are really passionate about.  NASCAR
products is what greases the skids so Dave can produce the products he
is passionate about.  Unfortunately, none of the type of racing sims you
mention will every come close to raking in the dough a NASCAR product
will bring in.  (And it doesn't even have to be a "good" NASCAR
product.)  It's sad, but it's true.... :-(

So when I said "flagship", I was referring to the ship that Dave's heart
sails on, not his pocketbook.  
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

John Walla

Papy Demo...

by John Walla » Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:00:00



We're not talking about ROI we're talking about the best showcase.
More people in the U.S. may eat at McDonalds than anywhere else, but
if you've just got the best chef in the world to work for your
restaurant you probably don't want to showcase him via
cheeseburgers...

Cheers!
John

Jack

Papy Demo...

by Jack » Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:00:00

David...

That's all a gross generalization that many Southerners find offensive.
Having been borne and raised in the South, I can assure you that there is a
large element of the native population that, while recognizing that some
what you described exists, find that behavior repulsive. Unfortunately, it's
an image that television and other media has chosen to popularize, leading
people to draw mistaken conclusions about the South. The moronic "Dukes of
Hazzard" is one prime example.

Another classic example that many of you may have seen: At the 1996 Summer
Olympics in Atlanta, you may recall that either at the opening or closing
ceremonies, amidst all the festivities in Olympic Stadium, there was a
bazaar parade of identical pickup trucks! You could almost hear the
collective groan in Atlanta as that was broadcast! Clearly this was
perpetuation of an inaccurate stereotype at its worst. Not only do we not
all drive pickup trucks, but, quite the contrary. Some time ago, I read that
Atlanta has the second highest per capita ownership of Mercedes-Benz
automobiles in the U.S., trailing only Los Angeles (Note: I personally care
noting about our status symbol ranking, but it certainly is inconsistent
with the pickup truck image.)

To many of us, "Southern culture" means hospitality, respect, warmth,
gentility and none of what you described. Please keep that in mind.

schwab

Papy Demo...

by schwab » Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Jack, I'm a "northerner" but this is the risk anyone runs with
generalizations... doesn't matter what it's about. Someone else made a
broad "Americans" generalization a few threads ago. Again, not smart.

There are some folks (The Rodster comes to mind) who talk (or type)
before they think... or maybe that's all they CAN think of. In that
case, we should feel sorry for them and move on.

CYA! :-)

-_Dave


> David...

> That's all a gross generalization that many Southerners find offensive.
> Having been borne and raised in the South, I can assure you that there is a
> large element of the native population that, while recognizing that some
> what you described exists, find that behavior repulsive. Unfortunately, it's
> an image that television and other media has chosen to popularize, leading
> people to draw mistaken conclusions about the South. The moronic "Dukes of
> Hazzard" is one prime example.

> Another classic example that many of you may have seen: At the 1996 Summer
> Olympics in Atlanta, you may recall that either at the opening or closing
> ceremonies, amidst all the festivities in Olympic Stadium, there was a
> bazaar parade of identical pickup trucks! You could almost hear the
> collective groan in Atlanta as that was broadcast! Clearly this was
> perpetuation of an inaccurate stereotype at its worst. Not only do we not
> all drive pickup trucks, but, quite the contrary. Some time ago, I read that
> Atlanta has the second highest per capita ownership of Mercedes-Benz
> automobiles in the U.S., trailing only Los Angeles (Note: I personally care
> noting about our status symbol ranking, but it certainly is inconsistent
> with the pickup truck image.)

> To many of us, "Southern culture" means hospitality, respect, warmth,
> gentility and none of what you described. Please keep that in mind.

--
Dave Schwabe

The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
http://users.wi.net/~schwabe
Jack

Papy Demo...

by Jack » Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Agreed. Just trying to limit the perpetuation of the myths.

Frankly, I was a little surprised by David's post because, if I recall
correctly, his posts are generally worthwhile, and frequently entertaining.

David Kar

Papy Demo...

by David Kar » Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Jack,

If you re-read my original post, you'll find that I noted that what I was
writing was indeed a wild generalization.  As a southerner myself, born and
bred in Alabama, I assure you that I realize that the "Dukes of Hazzard"
peddled a stereotype.  But, also as a southerner, I realize that, for better
or worse, stereotypes often cruelly contain a seed of truth.  Too say that
lots (and I mean LOTS) of pickup trucks around here have the pissing boy on
them is not to say it's a universal thing--but unless you yourself are
blind, you'll have to admit their popularity.

Marginalized groups--and rural, poor southerners might well be called that
(hence the resurgence of conservatism and "the politics of resentment" in
the south)--often adopt such flouting of what the *** call
"respectability" as a means of resistance.  (Thus rap music among urban,
poor African-Americans--and its watered-down adoption by suburban white
***s as a manifestation of their own rebellions against mom & pop.)  I see
the scatalogical references in southern pop-culture as much the same
thing--a (unconscious?) protest against norms which are at some level being
experienced as being "imposed."

V.S. Naipul, in his book _A Turn in the South_ has a very perceptive,
respectful and humane reading of "redneck" culture.  Worth a look.

So, sure, Atlanta (and Birmingham, and Savannah, and Nashville, etc) all
contain large concentrations of the "new south," whose self-representation
is well-intregrated into mainstream U.S. culture (if there can be said to be
such a thing--perhaps this is what you mean by "hospitality, respect,
warmth, gentility"--rather vague terms though, hardly exclusive to the south
. . . ).

But that doesn't mean rural culture has been wiped away.  A peak at
virtually any mid-to-small town mall's (and so the Buckhead Galleria is
right out) "arts & crafts" will show that.  What's interesting is to see how
that very culture itself has become commodified and re-integrated back into
southern suburban and urban culture.  This is particularly visible in
Nashville, which I just left after three years residence (having lived 30
years in Alabama prior to that).

At any rate, it sounds like you find these aspects of "the south" more, as
you wrote, "repulsive," than I do.  But really, who wants, who needs
uniformity?

best,
DK


>David...

>That's all a gross generalization that many Southerners find offensive.
>Having been borne and raised in the South, I can assure you that there is a
>large element of the native population that, while recognizing that some
>what you described exists, find that behavior repulsive. Unfortunately,
it's
>an image that television and other media has chosen to popularize, leading
>people to draw mistaken conclusions about the South. The moronic "Dukes of
>Hazzard" is one prime example.

>Another classic example that many of you may have seen: At the 1996 Summer
>Olympics in Atlanta, you may recall that either at the opening or closing
>ceremonies, amidst all the festivities in Olympic Stadium, there was a
>bazaar parade of identical pickup trucks! You could almost hear the
>collective groan in Atlanta as that was broadcast! Clearly this was
>perpetuation of an inaccurate stereotype at its worst. Not only do we not
>all drive pickup trucks, but, quite the contrary. Some time ago, I read
that
>Atlanta has the second highest per capita ownership of Mercedes-Benz
>automobiles in the U.S., trailing only Los Angeles (Note: I personally care
>noting about our status symbol ranking, but it certainly is inconsistent
>with the pickup truck image.)

>To many of us, "Southern culture" means hospitality, respect, warmth,
>gentility and none of what you described. Please keep that in mind.

Jack

Papy Demo...

by Jack » Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:00:00

generalization.

When you paint a picture, especially as vividly and effectively as you do,
David, but then follow your work with a claim that it may not be an accurate
depiction, I think the damage is already done.

It's the sense of uniformity that you and others depict with the Southern
stereotypes that is so objectionable. " 'Tis a strange place..." struck me
as if you were saying that because of the seemingly uniform and bizarre
behavior you described, the South was, in fact, an odd place. Can we agree
that almost any region you choose has its own odd (by any one man's
interpretation) factions? So why perpetuate a *uniform* stereotype of the
South, or any other region for that matter?

Enough said on this off-topic subject. By the way, I thought your post on
your girlfriend, her plastic baseball bat, and enhanced GPL realism was
hysterical!

Regards,

Jack

DPHI

Papy Demo...

by DPHI » Sat, 20 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Brought to you by the same director who brought you Grand Prix :-)

-don

David Mois

Papy Demo...

by David Mois » Sat, 20 Feb 1999 04:00:00


[Street driving game suggestions]

Boston.  Manhattan.  LA.

And what about them vehicles?  Midtown Madness will let you drive an
18-wheeler, but why stop there?  I suggest a transit bus (Speed),
trash trucks (the prototypical Mack truck), front end loaders,
backhoes, dump trucks..

Take care,

Dave


http://www1.shore.net/~dmoisan
Invisible Disability:  http://www1.shore.net/~dmoisan/invisible_disability.html
GE Superradio FAQ: http://www1.shore.net/~dmoisan/faqs/superradio/gesr_faq.html


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