rec.autos.simulators

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

Randy Cassid

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Randy Cassid » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00



Paul is quite right.  Port 201 joystick read routines work by issuing an
OUT to port 0x201, and then sit in a tight loop performing IN's on this
port, looking for each axis' bit value to change.  Simplistic port 201
routines just count the number of INs it takes for each axis to change.  A
slightly more sophisticated port 201 joystick reader will also disable
interrupts during the read.  Servicing interrupts during the read can lead
to jumpy reads, so disabling interrupts is essential if you want your reads
to be accurate.  Up until the Rendition version of IndyCar Racing, Papyrus'
joystick reader "counted the INs", and disabled interrupts.

Unfortunately, the "counting the INs" method works poorly when there are
bus mastering devices active in the system.  Such devices (I bet you can
guess one) can stall the processor, leading to intermittently lower "IN"
counts than would be appropriate, and thus jumpy joystick reads.  There's
nothing we can do about a bus mastering card stealing cycles away from the
CPU, so if we "count the INs" we'll have dicey reads.

"Counting the INs" can also work rather poorly when the serial port is
active if you haven't disabled interrupts, since the serial port interrupts
will intermittently skew the IN count lower than it should be.  You can
disable interrupts during the joystick read, but this can cause loss of
incoming data, and poor outgoing throughput on the serial port.  Unless, of
course, you put two-and-two together, and service the serial port directly
while you have interrupts disabled.  In the good old DOS days our joystick
read routine did exactly that.  It would disable interrupts, and it would
service the serial port(s) in its loop.  This gave us lossless incoming and
kick-ass outgoing serial port throughput (_without_ a 16550 UART!), and
accurate joystick reads.

Unfortunately, this doesn't work unless you run the game by rebooting the
machine into exclusive DOS mode (Windows "virtualizes" our request to
disable interrupts - by not disabling them.)  If we wanted to allow our
NASCAR Racing 2 customers to play two- or multi-player games through a
serial port while in Windows, and we wanted reasonably smooth joystick
reads, we couldn't use the "counting the INs" method.

So we abandoned "counting the INs" in favor of a more accurate method of
measuring the passage of time.  My guess is that these VxD's don't "reset
the bits when an appropriate decay time has been reached", but, instead,
reset the bits when some number of INs have been performed.  So all the
jumpiness we eliminated, these VxD's put right back in.

Randy

Larr

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Larr » Sat, 21 Nov 1998 04:00:00

Ok, Paul and Randy.  Thanks for your responses...

But...

While we have to facinating and technical lessons here, neither one of
them tells _us_ how to make _our_ MSFFW's work with Nascar 2.

I've re-read them several times, and I don't see the answer.

Your theories are nice, but they don't appear to work for us :)

If your answer is to run Nascar 2 in DOS mode, that won't work for many,
if not most of us, as we run NROS.  NROS is a Win9x front-end, and can't
be launced from DOS mode.

So, the question still remains.  How _does_ one get the MSFFW to work
with Nascar 2.  Everything I've read says it _cannot_ be done  because
the MSFFW is a digital device and that Nascar 2 does _not_ work with
digital devices.

If you have some sort of step-by-step plan to get around this issue, it
would most certainly be appreciated.

Thanks!

-Larry


> Sure it can.  When a write operation is detected to the game port (address
> 0x201), the DOS game is trying to charge the capacitors in the game card.
> The DOS game goes into a software timing loop reading the bits on the game
> port waiting for the capacitors to discharge.  The digital controller
> pretends to be an analog device and resets the bits when an appropriate
> decay time has been reached.

> Technically, a VxD is involved in the above, but it is sometimes easier to
> conceptualize it if you think of the controller doing the delay.

> For most DOS games the above works pretty well.  Papyrus tried to improve
> the efficiency of reading the port on Nascar 2.  This threw off our VxD as
> well as a few other wheel's VxDs.  I've met most of the wheel people out
> there and they all had some issues with N2.

> -Paul

> Paul is quite right.  Port 201 joystick read routines work by issuing an
> OUT to port 0x201, and then sit in a tight loop performing IN's on this
> port, looking for each axis' bit value to change.  Simplistic port 201
> routines just count the number of INs it takes for each axis to change.  A
> slightly more sophisticated port 201 joystick reader will also disable
> interrupts during the read.  Servicing interrupts during the read can lead
> to jumpy reads, so disabling interrupts is essential if you want your reads
> to be accurate.  Up until the Rendition version of IndyCar Racing, Papyrus'
> joystick reader "counted the INs", and disabled interrupts.

> Unfortunately, the "counting the INs" method works poorly when there are
> bus mastering devices active in the system.  Such devices (I bet you can
> guess one) can stall the processor, leading to intermittently lower "IN"
> counts than would be appropriate, and thus jumpy joystick reads.  There's
> nothing we can do about a bus mastering card stealing cycles away from the
> CPU, so if we "count the INs" we'll have dicey reads.

> "Counting the INs" can also work rather poorly when the serial port is
> active if you haven't disabled interrupts, since the serial port interrupts
> will intermittently skew the IN count lower than it should be.  You can
> disable interrupts during the joystick read, but this can cause loss of
> incoming data, and poor outgoing throughput on the serial port.  Unless, of
> course, you put two-and-two together, and service the serial port directly
> while you have interrupts disabled.  In the good old DOS days our joystick
> read routine did exactly that.  It would disable interrupts, and it would
> service the serial port(s) in its loop.  This gave us lossless incoming and
> kick-ass outgoing serial port throughput (_without_ a 16550 UART!), and
> accurate joystick reads.

> Unfortunately, this doesn't work unless you run the game by rebooting the
> machine into exclusive DOS mode (Windows "virtualizes" our request to
> disable interrupts - by not disabling them.)  If we wanted to allow our
> NASCAR Racing 2 customers to play two- or multi-player games through a
> serial port while in Windows, and we wanted reasonably smooth joystick
> reads, we couldn't use the "counting the INs" method.

> So we abandoned "counting the INs" in favor of a more accurate method of
> measuring the passage of time.  My guess is that these VxD's don't "reset
> the bits when an appropriate decay time has been reached", but, instead,
> reset the bits when some number of INs have been performed.  So all the
> jumpiness we eliminated, these VxD's put right back in.

> Randy

Trip

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Trip » Sat, 21 Nov 1998 04:00:00


> So, the question still remains.  How _does_ one get the MSFFW to work
> with Nascar 2.  Everything I've read says it _cannot_ be done  because
> the MSFFW is a digital device and that Nascar 2 does _not_ work with
> digital devices.

This won't be of much help to you, but everything you've read is wrong
if it suggests that the MSFF wheel can't work with Nascar2. Mine worked
jsut fine, right from the first try.

Only one problem... since mine never gave me a problem, I can't offer a
solution, all I can do is state that it will indeed work in at least
some cases.

Trips

Sean Blac

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Sean Blac » Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:00:00



>> So, the question still remains.  How _does_ one get the MSFFW to work
>> with Nascar 2.  Everything I've read says it _cannot_ be done  because
>> the MSFFW is a digital device and that Nascar 2 does _not_ work with
>> digital devices.

>This won't be of much help to you, but everything you've read is wrong
>if it suggests that the MSFF wheel can't work with Nascar2. Mine worked
>jsut fine, right from the first try.

>Only one problem... since mine never gave me a problem, I can't offer a
>solution, all I can do is state that it will indeed work in at least
>some cases.

>Trips

It doesn't work for me either. I have tried booting straight to DOS
running in Win98, running in a DOS box, reinstalling it in Win98 and in
a Win98 DOS box, nothing works for me.
--
Sean Black
Rick Worre

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Rick Worre » Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:00:00

Sean, this just occurred to me, as I can't get it to work either:

Attention people who have N2 working with MS FF: are you running Win95
or Win98?  Maybe Win98 does a DOS box a little differently.

Just a thought, but anything's possible.
On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:26:48 +0000, Sean Black




>>> So, the question still remains.  How _does_ one get the MSFFW to work
>>> with Nascar 2.  Everything I've read says it _cannot_ be done  because
>>> the MSFFW is a digital device and that Nascar 2 does _not_ work with
>>> digital devices.

>>This won't be of much help to you, but everything you've read is wrong
>>if it suggests that the MSFF wheel can't work with Nascar2. Mine worked
>>jsut fine, right from the first try.

>>Only one problem... since mine never gave me a problem, I can't offer a
>>solution, all I can do is state that it will indeed work in at least
>>some cases.

>>Trips
>It doesn't work for me either. I have tried booting straight to DOS
>running in Win98, running in a DOS box, reinstalling it in Win98 and in
>a Win98 DOS box, nothing works for me.

--
Rick Worrell
Sports *** Network
http://www.racesimcentral.net/***.com
Greg Cisk

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Greg Cisk » Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:00:00


>Sean, this just occurred to me, as I can't get it to work either:

>Attention people who have N2 working with MS FF: are you running Win95
>or Win98?  Maybe Win98 does a DOS box a little differently.

>Just a thought, but anything's possible.

Correct. It is also why MS is in court :-) I too am interested in
whether people using the MS-FF wheel with N2 or NR1999
are using W95 or W98.

--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Larr

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Larr » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00

I really don't understand this at all :)

Everything I have read everywhere says that Nascar 2 will NOT work with
a digital device.

Are you, by chance, running N2 in DOS mode instead of under Win9x?

-Larry


> This won't be of much help to you, but everything you've read is wrong
> if it suggests that the MSFF wheel can't work with Nascar2. Mine worked
> jsut fine, right from the first try.

> Only one problem... since mine never gave me a problem, I can't offer a
> solution, all I can do is state that it will indeed work in at least
> some cases.

> Trips

Larr

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Larr » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00

Even if this was the case, it wouldn't help me, and I bet a lot of other
folks that run NROS.

We can't run N2 in DOS mode because the TEN client software is Win9x
based...

-Larry


> Sean, this just occurred to me, as I can't get it to work either:

> Attention people who have N2 working with MS FF: are you running Win95
> or Win98?  Maybe Win98 does a DOS box a little differently.

> Just a thought, but anything's possible.

Larr

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Larr » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00

Nascar 1999 is fine _if_ you are running the Win9x version.  If you try
the DOS version, the same issue with the wheel exists.

What we need is some sort of utility to intercept the digital signals
and report them as analog to Sierra's joystick driver in N2.

-Larry


> Correct. It is also why MS is in court :-) I too am interested in
> whether people using the MS-FF wheel with N2 or NR1999
> are using W95 or W98.

Matthew V. Jessic

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Matthew V. Jessic » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00


> I really don't understand this at all :)

> Everything I have read everywhere says that Nascar 2 will NOT work with
> a digital device.

> Are you, by chance, running N2 in DOS mode instead of under Win9x?

> -Larry

As I understand someones kind explanation,
to work through the standard game port, the
digital device must pretend to be analog.
Which is horrendously perverse ;)

- Matt

Larr

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Larr » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00

Anyone know how to do this?

-Larry


Trip

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Trip » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00

I'm running it via Win95. I'm not rebooting to DOS if that's what you mean. I
just hit the Start button and pick Nascar2 from the Siueera group.

Trips


> I really don't understand this at all :)

> Everything I have read everywhere says that Nascar 2 will NOT work with
> a digital device.

> Are you, by chance, running N2 in DOS mode instead of under Win9x?

> -Larry


> > This won't be of much help to you, but everything you've read is wrong
> > if it suggests that the MSFF wheel can't work with Nascar2. Mine worked
> > jsut fine, right from the first try.

> > Only one problem... since mine never gave me a problem, I can't offer a
> > solution, all I can do is state that it will indeed work in at least
> > some cases.

> > Trips

Larr

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Larr » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00

You are the only person on the planet that has this working...

I still have to ask _what_ you have done to make the MSFFW work with
Nascar Racing 2, a DOS based game, that no one else has had any sucess
with?

Do you have some sort of funky Gameport/Sound Card that converts digital
to analog?

-Larry


> I'm running it via Win95. I'm not rebooting to DOS if that's what you mean. I
> just hit the Start button and pick Nascar2 from the Siueera group.

> Trips

Greg Cisk

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Greg Cisk » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00


>I really don't understand this at all :)

I believe that.

N2/NR1999 (DOS version) works just fine with a MS-FF wheel. And as
Trips said it worked on the first try.

The Wheel is a WIndows 95/98 native device which runs within a W95/98
DOS box. Do you not understand what this means?

--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>-Larry


>> This won't be of much help to you, but everything you've read is wrong
>> if it suggests that the MSFF wheel can't work with Nascar2. Mine worked
>> jsut fine, right from the first try.

>> Only one problem... since mine never gave me a problem, I can't offer a
>> solution, all I can do is state that it will indeed work in at least
>> some cases.

>> Trips

Greg Cisk

MS Force Feedback Wheel Question

by Greg Cisk » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00


>Nascar 1999 is fine _if_ you are running the Win9x version.  If you try
>the DOS version, the same issue with the wheel exists.

Well maybe you can come over to my house and show me how
to***up my setup so the wheel won't work with the DOS
version. As I said it works fine.

Why?

--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com


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