rec.autos.simulators

by **Mike Grand** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Here is a copy of the letter I sent to Avault. I hope that anyone who disagrees with what was written takes the time to express their dissatisfaction with Bob Mandels poor effort at being a racing simulation reviewer.

Dear Brian,

After reading numerous bad reviews that were written by Bob Mandel regarding racing simulations that were posted on Avault I have come to the conclusion that Bob Mandel has no clue as to what a good simulation entails. It's perfectly obvious from his bio that his interest lies with arcade games and leads me to believe he has no real life experience in the real racing world. Do yourselves a favor and get someone that can do the job and do it properly. I have been involved with dirt track racing for over 20 years and can tell you that what Ratbag has done is to produce one of the most realistic physics engines to date. The cars handle and react as close to the real thing as has been released yet and Bob did a very poor job of letting the public know what they are missing. I sincerely hope you take this seriously and believe me when I tell you that you will probably loose many readers if this type of simulation review continues. I would suggest visiting some of the other sites that review racing simulations to see what I mean.

http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
www.3dgameforce.com/software/previews/dirttrack
http://www.***-age.com/reviews/pc/dtr/

Michael K. Grandy Sr.

by **Ron Ayto** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Hi Mike,
Firstly, i am not trying to argue with you, or be an arsehole, as i
respect your point of view, but i do disagree with your analaysis on
the reality feeling/feedback of DTR.
DTR feels as though i am not in control of the car..
To me, the cars in DTR, feel as though they are floating on a cushion
of air, with no actual contact with the ground..
I am not saying that DTR is not fun for some guys etc, but the physics
do not feel real to me either...
The closest i have found to emulating a DTR saloon car on the computer,
is a F2 car in GPL, run on a converted small Oval, like Pikes Peak, and
setup for the loose side of neutral.
I know that is not real either, but i am just giving you a
understanding of what i class as a closer feel to real dirt track
racing than what DTR gives me.
I will add that i don't have a FF steering wheel, so maybe with a FF
wheel it could be different..
I will eventually get a FF wheel, and when i do i will try it again and
give you my impressions then. :)
IMO, i find that even without FF, GPL on a oval translates the feeling
to me that DTR should..

I have never read any of Bobs articles, nor do i bother with hardly any
reviews of any sims/games on the internet, as i chose to use my own
judgment.
DTR, without a FF wheel, feels too detached from any input to me Mike..

Cheers,
Ron

Here is a copy of the letter I sent to Avault. I hope that anyone who
disagrees with what was written takes the time to express their
dissatisfaction with Bob Mandels poor effort at being a racing
simulation reviewer.

Dear Brian,

After reading numerous bad reviews that were written by Bob Mandel
regarding racing simulations that were posted on Avault I have come to
the conclusion that Bob Mandel has no clue as to what a good simulation
entails. It's perfectly obvious from his bio that his interest lies
with arcade games and leads me to believe he has no real life
experience in the real racing world. Do yourselves a favor and get
someone that can do the job and do it properly. I have been involved
with dirt track racing for over 20 years and can tell you that what
Ratbag has done is to produce one of the most realistic physics engines
to date. The cars handle and react as close to the real thing as has
been released yet and Bob did a very poor job of letting the public
know what they are missing. I sincerely hope you take this seriously
and believe me when I tell you that you will probably loose many
readers if this type of simulation review continues. I would suggest
visiting some of the other sites that review racing simulations to see
what I mean.

http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
www.3dgameforce.com/software/previews/dirttrack
http://www.***-age.com/reviews/pc/dtr/

Michael K. Grandy Sr.

----------

by **Todd Sorense** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Yes, but you have to like that felling of power these cars give you ;>)

> Hi Mike,
> Firstly, i am not trying to argue with you, or be an arsehole, as i
> respect your point of view, but i do disagree with your analaysis on
> the reality feeling/feedback of DTR.
> DTR feels as though i am not in control of the car..
> To me, the cars in DTR, feel as though they are floating on a cushion
> of air, with no actual contact with the ground..
> I am not saying that DTR is not fun for some guys etc, but the physics
> do not feel real to me either...
> The closest i have found to emulating a DTR saloon car on the computer,
> is a F2 car in GPL, run on a converted small Oval, like Pikes Peak, and
> setup for the loose side of neutral.
> I know that is not real either, but i am just giving you a
> understanding of what i class as a closer feel to real dirt track
> racing than what DTR gives me.
> I will add that i don't have a FF steering wheel, so maybe with a FF
> wheel it could be different..
> I will eventually get a FF wheel, and when i do i will try it again and
> give you my impressions then. :)
> IMO, i find that even without FF, GPL on a oval translates the feeling
> to me that DTR should..

> I have never read any of Bobs articles, nor do i bother with hardly any
> reviews of any sims/games on the internet, as i chose to use my own
> judgment.
> DTR, without a FF wheel, feels too detached from any input to me Mike..

> Cheers,
> Ron

> Here is a copy of the letter I sent to Avault. I hope that anyone who
> disagrees with what was written takes the time to express their
> dissatisfaction with Bob Mandels poor effort at being a racing
> simulation reviewer.

> Dear Brian,

> After reading numerous bad reviews that were written by Bob Mandel
> regarding racing simulations that were posted on Avault I have come to
> the conclusion that Bob Mandel has no clue as to what a good simulation
> entails. It's perfectly obvious from his bio that his interest lies
> with arcade games and leads me to believe he has no real life
> experience in the real racing world. Do yourselves a favor and get
> someone that can do the job and do it properly. I have been involved
> with dirt track racing for over 20 years and can tell you that what
> Ratbag has done is to produce one of the most realistic physics engines
> to date. The cars handle and react as close to the real thing as has
> been released yet and Bob did a very poor job of letting the public
> know what they are missing. I sincerely hope you take this seriously
> and believe me when I tell you that you will probably loose many
> readers if this type of simulation review continues. I would suggest
> visiting some of the other sites that review racing simulations to see
> what I mean.

> http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> www.3dgameforce.com/software/previews/dirttrack
> http://www.***-age.com/reviews/pc/dtr/

> Michael K. Grandy Sr.

> ----------

by **Ron Ayto** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

LOL, Todd... for sure..!!
I like most driving games, hopefully when i finally get a FF wheel i
can appreciate a lot more diversity in my choices of sims...

Cheers,
Ron

by **Robert Jorda** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

I also feel that DTR handles strangely exactly like you say "FLOATING on
air
as you drive around the track). Its fun to drive but still it feels like
im not in complete control of the car.

> > Yes, but you have to like that felling of power these cars give you
> ;>)

> LOL, Todd... for sure..!!
> I like most driving games, hopefully when i finally get a FF wheel i
> can appreciate a lot more diversity in my choices of sims...

> Cheers,
> Ron

by **A.Ingra** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

I tried DTR. Five minutes later, I deleted the demo. How can you say that
this game feels real? It felt like I had about as much control as the first
time I went roller blading. Maybe it's because the drivers were always high
on pot and beer! Nice try, DTR blows.

Here is a copy of the letter I sent to Avault. I hope that anyone who
disagrees with what was written takes the time to express their
dissatisfaction with Bob Mandels poor effort at being a racing simulation
reviewer.

Dear Brian,

After reading numerous bad reviews that were written by Bob Mandel regarding
racing simulations that were posted on Avault I have come to the conclusion
that Bob Mandel has no clue as to what a good simulation entails. It's
perfectly obvious from his bio that his interest lies with arcade games and
leads me to believe he has no real life experience in the real racing world.
Do yourselves a favor and get someone that can do the job and do it
properly. I have been involved with dirt track racing for over 20 years and
can tell you that what Ratbag has done is to produce one of the most
realistic physics engines to date. The cars handle and react as close to the
real thing as has been released yet and Bob did a very poor job of letting
the public know what they are missing. I sincerely hope you take this
seriously and believe me when I tell you that you will probably loose many
readers if this type of simulation review continues. I would suggest
visiting some of the other sites that review racing simulations to see what
I mean.

http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
www.3dgameforce.com/software/previews/dirttrack
http://www.***-age.com/reviews/pc/dtr/

Michael K. Grandy Sr.

by **Pete** » Thu, 06 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Ahh, you tried the demo! Maybe, a lot of things weren't included
in the demo, that made it to the end product.

Pete

by **Wayne Hutchiso** » Sat, 08 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Have you ever raced on a dirt track? I have and I think DTR is quite
realistic in the way the cars handle. It may not be perfect, but then no
simulator to date is...

Wayne Hutchison

> I tried DTR. Five minutes later, I deleted the demo. How can you say that
> this game feels real? It felt like I had about as much control as the
first
> time I went roller blading. Maybe it's because the drivers were always
high
> on pot and beer! Nice try, DTR blows.

> Here is a copy of the letter I sent to Avault. I hope that anyone who
> disagrees with what was written takes the time to express their
> dissatisfaction with Bob Mandels poor effort at being a racing simulation
> reviewer.

> Dear Brian,

> After reading numerous bad reviews that were written by Bob Mandel
regarding
> racing simulations that were posted on Avault I have come to the
conclusion
> that Bob Mandel has no clue as to what a good simulation entails. It's
> perfectly obvious from his bio that his interest lies with arcade games
and
> leads me to believe he has no real life experience in the real racing
world.
> Do yourselves a favor and get someone that can do the job and do it
> properly. I have been involved with dirt track racing for over 20 years
and
> can tell you that what Ratbag has done is to produce one of the most
> realistic physics engines to date. The cars handle and react as close to
the
> real thing as has been released yet and Bob did a very poor job of letting
> the public know what they are missing. I sincerely hope you take this
> seriously and believe me when I tell you that you will probably loose many
> readers if this type of simulation review continues. I would suggest
> visiting some of the other sites that review racing simulations to see
what
> I mean.

> http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> www.3dgameforce.com/software/previews/dirttrack
> http://www.***-age.com/reviews/pc/dtr/

> Michael K. Grandy Sr.

by **Eldre** » Sun, 09 Jan 2000 04:00:00

> Ahh, you tried the demo! Maybe, a lot of things weren't included
>in the demo, that made it to the end product.

> Pete

>> I tried DTR. Five minutes later, I deleted the demo. How can you say that
>> this game feels real? It felt like I had about as much control as the
>first
>> time I went roller blading. Maybe it's because the drivers were always
>high
>> on pot and beer! Nice try, DTR blows.

Ok, I'll jump in here. The demo is supposed to *demonstrate* the features of
the finished product. Why the hell would ANY company put out a demo that turns
people off of the product? Who cares what's in the final version? If 1000
people the demo, and it sucks, that's 1000 paying customers you may have
lost... I haven't tried the DTR demo, but I tried the TOCA2 demo, and it hit
me the same way - it sucked. Yes, I've heard people say that the retail
version is better, but the demo kept me from buying it.

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Pete** » Sun, 09 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Part of the problem was the ability to change the steering response
in the demo. Because they didn't allow the setups to be modified. In the
demo this was turned off with the settings. It did affect the way the car
handled for some people in the demo.
I couldn't have sucked too bad because from my understanding they
have sold out the entire first production run. And have had to have more
copies reprinted.

Pete

by **Ronald Stoeh** » Mon, 10 Jan 2000 04:00:00

snip
> I couldn't have sucked too bad because from my understanding they
> have sold out the entire first production run. And have had to have more
> copies reprinted.

That doesn't really matter here, does it? I'm sure, Psygnosis' F1 racer
sold
pretty good to the arcade crowd, but most here don't take sold numbers
into
account judging a racing game...

l8er
ronny

by **Pete** » Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:00

The majority of people that have bought the game like it! Just because
a few don't doesn't mean it wasn't a good product for those that enjoyed
it. You are not always going to please everyone.
But then again we have those that look for any excuse to trash something
that doesn't fit their perfect world! And in some cases they have to really
reach to achieve their personal agenda.

Pete

> snip
.

> That doesn't really matter here, does it? I'm sure, Psygnosis' F1 racer
> sold
> pretty good to the arcade crowd, but most here don't take sold numbers
> into
> account judging a racing game...

> l8er
> ronny

by **Eldre** » Sat, 15 Jan 2000 04:00:00

> Part of the problem was the ability to change the steering response
>in the demo. Because they didn't allow the setups to be modified. In the
>demo this was turned off with the settings. It did affect the way the car
>handled for some people in the demo.

Why in the WORLD would they disable something so important to your impression
of the game? That's just STUPID...

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Pete** » Sun, 16 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Its called a sample, a taste of the graphics, sound and
gameplay! If you want the full sim most people buy it!
But then again there are those that would rather ***
when they have no intention to ever purchase the game.
Stupid, maybe. But you could wait for 4 or 5 months
to get a demo from Papy after the game has been released.
Their demo was 4 or 5 weeks ahead of the games release
and thousands were enjoying it enough to buy it.

Pete

> > Part of the problem was the ability to change the steering response
> >in the demo. Because they didn't allow the setups to be modified. In the
> >demo this was turned off with the settings. It did affect the way the car
> >handled for some people in the demo.

> Why in the WORLD would they disable something so important to your
impression
> of the game? That's just STUPID...

> Eldred
> --
> Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
> Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats
you
> with experience...
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Eldre** » Tue, 18 Jan 2000 04:00:00

> Its called a sample, a taste of the graphics, sound and
>gameplay! If you want the full sim most people buy it!
>But then again there are those that would rather ***
>when they have no intention to ever purchase the game.
> Stupid, maybe. But you could wait for 4 or 5 months
>to get a demo from Papy after the game has been released.
>Their demo was 4 or 5 weeks ahead of the games release
>and thousands were enjoying it enough to buy it.

> Pete

>> > Part of the problem was the ability to change the steering response
>> >in the demo. Because they didn't allow the setups to be modified. In the
>> >demo this was turned off with the settings. It did affect the way the car
>> >handled for some people in the demo.

>> Why in the WORLD would they disable something so important to your
>impression
>> of the game? That's just STUPID...

Now wait a ***ing minute! The *gameplay* was what I was talking about!
Because of the limited steering response, I don't think the demo was an
accurate representation of the full game. And for your information, I have
purchased 20-25 racing games, and have a whole bookshelf FULL of purchased
games. Don't even *attempt* to guess my intentions...how the hell would YOU
know?

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

rec.autos.simulators

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault

Letter to Avault