rec.autos.simulators

LOL, that's a good bit of history Ed.  

It's just that some folks seem to always want to play the blame game and sue even though IT WAS AN ACCIDENT and forces of nature cannot be completely contained no matter what you do!

Wag

    If I am not mistaken, Road America does have a fence to keep the animals off the track.   The deer vaulted that fence.

    Wag

      Yes they put the fence up when they did one of several reincarnations of the track back around 1970 or so (memory gets worse as I age). Fences are not very good at keeping most wildlife in or out of a complex as large as the property at Road America. Pocono is a good example of how inefficient even very high fences are when it comes to keeping deer off the track. They find a way to get in somehow. There are even a few bears in the Road America area (Kettle Moraine State Forest). The fact is that most tracks in the US are in rural areas and none are immune to wildlife getting on the track. Both Mid Ohio and Road Atlanta have had deer get inside too. I remember a long delay at a race when a doe and a fawn got onto the Milwaukee Mile which is far from being in a rural area. I remember when I did drivers' school at Road America over 40yrs ago that the instructor warned that if you go out early to do the first couple of laps carefully and that after a bit of time the deer get wary of the track because of the noise and are less of a problem. There were no fences that I know of back then. The back side of the circuit was like driving through the Black Forest.......:-)

      Ed

    Yes, I must admit that I have once again judged others by my own standards. To expect the typical human to be able to outwit a moose, deer, etc is a little silly I guess. Them some smart deer over there in 'merica.

  LOL, that's a good bit of history Ed.  

  It's just that some folks seem to always want to play the blame game and sue even though IT WAS AN ACCIDENT and forces of nature cannot be completely contained no matter what you do!

  Wag

      If I am not mistaken, Road America does have a fence to keep the animals off the track.   The deer vaulted that fence.

      Wag

        Yes they put the fence up when they did one of several reincarnations of the track back around 1970 or so (memory gets worse as I age). Fences are not very good at keeping most wildlife in or out of a complex as large as the property at Road America. Pocono is a good example of how inefficient even very high fences are when it comes to keeping deer off the track. They find a way to get in somehow. There are even a few bears in the Road America area (Kettle Moraine State Forest). The fact is that most tracks in the US are in rural areas and none are immune to wildlife getting on the track. Both Mid Ohio and Road Atlanta have had deer get inside too. I remember a long delay at a race when a doe and a fawn got onto the Milwaukee Mile which is far from being in a rural area. I remember when I did drivers' school at Road America over 40yrs ago that the instructor warned that if you go out early to do the first couple of laps carefully and that after a bit of time the deer get wary of the track because of the noise and are less of a problem. There were no fences that I know of back then. The back side of the circuit was like driving through the Black Forest.......:-)

        Ed

Damned straight, and they're all armed.  So watch it Buster!  ;-)

      Yes, I must admit that I have once again judged others by my own standards. To expect the typical human to be able to outwit a moose, deer, etc is a little silly I guess. Them some smart deer over there in 'merica.

LOL, I guess we should be able to stop other acts of nature like tornadoes and hurricanes too......that damn mutha nature jus' outwit us here in the states ever' time.  Damnit, maybe we should find somebody to sue for those too.......

Get off the bong mate!

--

Wag

"God, Guns, & Guts keep America Free, let's keep all three!"

      Yes, I must admit that I have once again judged others by my own standards. To expect the typical human to be able to outwit a moose, deer, etc is a little silly I guess. Them some smart deer over there in 'merica.

    An interesting assertion ie that there is no difference between a hurricane and a deer. You are the manager of Elkhart Lake, right?

    FFS, you can't have it both ways - you're either stupid or deliberately irresponsible to save money - take your pick!

    Not only should there be litigation but those in charge should never again be allowed any position of responsibility in motorsport again. I'd even be happy to see them not allowed to operate a business ever again - a just punishment for a failure to apply proper OH&S procedures in the workplace which is probably the legal issue here.

    Da Matta is still in a coma and it is not known whether he will wake up or not.

  LOL, I guess we should be able to stop other acts of nature like tornadoes and hurricanes too......that damn mutha nature jus' outwit us here in the states ever' time.  Damnit, maybe we should find somebody to sue for those too.......

  Get off the bong mate!

  --

  Wag

  "God, Guns, & Guts keep America Free, let's keep all three!"

        Yes, I must admit that I have once again judged others by my own standards. To expect the typical human to be able to outwit a moose, deer, etc is a little silly I guess. Them some smart deer over there in 'merica.

It's apparent that no intelligent conversation is going to occur with you on this issue.   I should have realized this previously.  I'm done....  Do take care though sir.

--
Wag

"God, Guns, & Guts keep America Free, let's keep all three!"

      An interesting assertion ie that there is no difference between a hurricane and a deer. You are the manager of Elkhart Lake, right?

      FFS, you can't have it both ways - you're either stupid or deliberately irresponsible to save money - take your pick!

      Not only should there be litigation but those in charge should never again be allowed any position of responsibility in motorsport again. I'd even be happy to see them not allowed to operate a business ever again - a just punishment for a failure to apply proper OH&S procedures in the workplace which is probably the legal issue here.

      Da Matta is still in a coma and it is not known whether he will wake up or not.

    LOL, I guess we should be able to stop other acts of nature like tornadoes and hurricanes too......that damn mutha nature jus' outwit us here in the states ever' time.  Damnit, maybe we should find somebody to sue for those too.......

    Get off the bong mate!

    --

    Wag

    "God, Guns, & Guts keep America Free, let's keep all three!"

          Yes, I must admit that I have once again judged others by my own standards. To expect the typical human to be able to outwit a moose, deer, etc is a little silly I guess. Them some smart deer over there in 'merica.

      An interesting assertion ie that there is no difference between a hurricane and a deer. You are the manager of Elkhart Lake, right?

      FFS, you can't have it both ways - you're either stupid or deliberately irresponsible to save money - take your pick!

      Not only should there be litigation but those in charge should never again be allowed any position of responsibility in motorsport again. I'd even be happy to see them not allowed to operate a business ever again - a just punishment for a failure to apply proper OH&S procedures in the workplace which is probably the legal issue here.

      Da Matta is still in a coma and it is not known whether he will wake up or not.

  Byron,
  I was not trying to downplay the tragedy at all. I was just trying to explain some of the actual facts of the matter and give a bit of history of Road America because I practically grew up there as a ***. We have a LOT of deer and other wildlife here in the US and deer are especially populous about everywhere, in every state. Tens of thousands are hit by autos on highways every year. I don't remember any racers ever hitting a deer at Road America before, but many have been seen on or near the track for decades. If there were any cases of a deer actually being hit there, there were probably no major injuries to any drivers. All I was trying to do was to put it in perspective. There are miles of fences at Road America, but deer have a way of getting to where they want to go as is evidenced at many other tracks who also take precautions. If spectators can drive into the circuit to watch a race I can guarantee that deer are going to get in too. I hate to see Da Matta in his present condition and have always liked him as a driver. I hope and pray he will recover. I just cannot place blame on anyone for the incident. Call it an act of God or whatever you wish. I just see it as a very unfortunate accident.

  Ed

    LOL, I guess we should be able to stop other acts of nature like tornadoes and hurricanes too......that damn mutha nature jus' outwit us here in the states ever' time.  Damnit, maybe we should find somebody to sue for those too.......

    Get off the bong mate!

    --

    Wag

    "God, Guns, & Guts keep America Free, let's keep all three!"

          Yes, I must admit that I have once again judged others by my own standards. To expect the typical human to be able to outwit a moose, deer, etc is a little silly I guess. Them some smart deer over there in 'merica.

    Is it REALLY that difficult?

    Think about all the measures in place for safety in motorsport these
days and now some bunch of bozos can't keep a deer off a race track!?

    Not good enough!

Don McCorkle

You really don't get it do you: Yes it is.   A couple of years ago
there was a ground hog on the track during practice at the Montreal GP.
 It's an island surrounded by rapids in the middle of a city and they
still can't totally eliminate them.   Now a ground hog isn't a deer
but 20-30lbs of rodent is going to do some serious damage.

Elkhart lake is in the middle of rural no-where, deer population is
going through a growth trend, they are smart, elusive and pervasive.
Ask any hunter how hard it is to find deer.  Ironically the fence and
human activity likely does a good job of keeping out their main
preditors (wolves, etc..)  A 4 mile track has many square acres of
forested infield that could support a deer population even if no more
ever get in.   Totally eliminating deer in WS is about as realistic
eliminating landmines in the middle east, it's their natural
environment, we're the interlopers.

Suing the ***out of anybody responsible for anything is a great way
to prevent anybody from volunteering for anything.  eg. why would
anybody volunteer to be a track marshal if they thought one mistake and
some millionare will sue their family into bankrupcy.

ronny

You are absolutely correct. All I was trying to get across is that, as
unfortunate as this incident was, that it could happen virtually anywhere in
the US (or world for that matter). I guess that you could have 20mi or so of
30ft high concrete fencing around the Road America complex (not exactly sure
how much land is involved but much more than the track) and then fencing the
infield (which would block spectator views) it may help a little. For people
to try and police deer movement would be impossible to say the least. When I
was a *** and racing there the deer population was probably less than now.
They were still there but just like today when you have a full field of cars
running, the deer avoid the track and disappear like they do during hunting
season when the first shots are fired on opening morning. In WI, there are
no natural predators to control deer population except man, with the
exception of the far north where there is a small wolf population. Deer just
have a way to get where they want to go no matter what man does. RA has not
just been sitting around for 50yrs or so and not doing anything. They do
have fencing now which they didn't in the early/mid 60s. This was a freak
accident. I have never heard of any other injuries by deer in the history of
the track in all of the many series' that have ran there over the last 40+
years.

Ed

Have to jump in here as well.  I worked for CART for a few years and Road America was one of our regular stops.  I found that track to be the most secure....and ***about what goes on around track.  As much as you plan to close every door, there is always something that could happen that you did not think of.  Think of "chaos theory" in Jurassic Park.  There is no such thing at 100% full proof in racing.   C***te thought it was a very safe (for fans)until an IRL tire went up in the stands and killed 4 people in the early 2000s.

I have met De-Matta a few times while working with the series and he is a very great guy....but holding Road America liable for the "deer incident" is stupid at best.

      An interesting assertion ie that there is no difference between a hurricane and a deer. You are the manager of Elkhart Lake, right?

      FFS, you can't have it both ways - you're either stupid or deliberately irresponsible to save money - take your pick!

      Not only should there be litigation but those in charge should never again be allowed any position of responsibility in motorsport again. I'd even be happy to see them not allowed to operate a business ever again - a just punishment for a failure to apply proper OH&S procedures in the workplace which is probably the legal issue here.

      Da Matta is still in a coma and it is not known whether he will wake up or not.

    LOL, I guess we should be able to stop other acts of nature like tornadoes and hurricanes too......that damn mutha nature jus' outwit us here in the states ever' time.  Damnit, maybe we should find somebody to sue for those too.......

    Get off the bong mate!

    --

    Wag

    "God, Guns, & Guts keep America Free, let's keep all three!"

          Yes, I must admit that I have once again judged others by my own standards. To expect the typical human to be able to outwit a moose, deer, etc is a little silly I guess. Them some smart deer over there in 'merica.

    Sounds like a fair enough assessment. I suppose being a test, there were
no marshalls, etc? I would guess that during official practice/qual/race
that yellow flags would have solved this issue.

    It still makes me curious as to what the courts will do about this if it
goes there.

    I was wondering especially about the Bathurst race here and kangaroos -
talk about animals that are hard to contain. It is probably inevitable that
something similar will happen at Bathurst with a kangaroo and since a lot of
the track is public road also surrounded by many private propeties, fencing
the necessary areas off might not be possible. It could be the end of all
racing there!!!!!!!