rec.autos.simulators

Joe opined:

<<BTW, Microsoft hasn't posted ANYTHING about MTM here, not a peep.>

<<That's just silly. They released a game generally thought of poorly
(CPR). Now if they release a different game that meets its goals
better and is more fun that's somehow an "insult"? >>

<<So, clearly, telling us how great it is (which all publishers do of
course) is obviously NOT "all they need to do".>>

Joe--

I don't want to be insulting, but (a) did you even read my post? and (b)
are the nuances of English sentence structure a new area for you?

As I clearly stated, a representative of MS posted to the Apex website
(Official Microsoft CPR Hideout... just a joke, guys!), not here --
although both MS reps who have appeared here had promised "ongoing
support and presence" in this NG.

Here, once again, is the message posted at the Apex website by the MS
rep, in reply to several messages asking *specifically* about the status
of further development of CPR--either finishing the current version or
expecting all the suckers to boot in the money for a spurious v2.
Remember, this was a thread response to questions specifically about CPR
-- not MTM or Bill Gates' pimples or anything else. If you doubt my
veracity or judgement on this subject, by all means go check out the
Message Board at Apex:

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Here's the "reply":

<<Sorry for lack of postings - I have had trouble logging in here.

The current situation is that we are finishing MTM2 with TRi right now.
The game is awesome - and almost finished:

mtm2.gamestats.com/
www.microsoft.com/games/gamestock98/Monster_Truck_Madness_2.htm

Once that is done and the team has had a vacation we'll plan what we do
next.

So, there is no information available right now - as soon as there is
you'll know.

We hope the Paint Kit and Track Editor will keep you guys busy in the
meantime. I know John has a lot of information on the Track Editor, and
I am sure he can answer any questions you may have.

We are looking forward to racing on your new tracks!

I have said this before, but let me restate that we are committed to the
motor racing category and you will see and hear plenty of exciting
announcements from us moving ahead.

All the best,>>

Tell me where you see any information about CPR in this message.

Again -- forgive me for repeating myself, but I want this to be clear --
this very same MS rep posted a message in this very NewsGroup, just
before TRI left to join g.o.d., that MS would "support CPR completely".

Now that has changed to "we are committed to the motor racing category".
Since the departure of TRI, every question, both in this NG and at the
Apex site, regarding the future of CPR, has been met with absolute
non-response from MS, except a brief message regarding the availability
of the track editor. All MS will talk about is MTM2, and they've even
tried to deflect questions about CPR by gurgling about "the new sim
we're working on", pretending, apparently, that it is something OTHER
than MTM2.

Be my guest, by all means, and go peruse the relevant threads at Apex
and the archived NG posts at DejaNews, but there's the answer to your
'That's just silly. They released a game generally thought of poorly
(CPR). Now if they release a different game that meets its goals better
and is more fun that's somehow an "insult"?' Yes, it's an insult that
they think anyone is so stupid that they'll accept a NON-answer to a
question MS could easily answer, or try to dodge the CPR question
entirely with such infantile nonsense.

<<So, clearly, telling us how great it is (which all publishers do of
course) is obviously NOT "all they need to do".>>

No...REALLY? Isn't that exactly what I said? Irony in the English
language is a tricky thing, I suppose, but please re-read that part of
my message a few times. If you still don't get it, my intent was to
state that MS (certainly not alone amongst software publishers)
apparently thinks that boasting over and over about how good a sim CPR
is will somehow convince everyone that it's true, when it is
demonstrably, by common consensus if you will, NOT true. Instead of
wasting their time boasting, playing moronic head-games, and pretending
the problem doesn't exist, they should either hike up their knickers and
do the necessary work (which means, of course, hiring someone else to do
it -- TRI if possible, which doesn't seem impossible, given that they're
working with them on MTM2), or admit that it's the end of the line for
CPR, tough luck, but what can we do.

Of course, admitting such a thing would hardly fit in with MS' image of
itself, as amply demonstrated by the boastful petulance of their two
"reps" who no longer respond to direct questions. Do you think this is
responsible behavior by a company who has proclaimed to the world that
they have produced the "greatest racing sim" ever seen?

Please let me know which part of this is unclear.

Regards

Bart Brown

In fact, having just re-visited the Message Board at the Apex website, I
encourage everyone who has any interest in CPR (a rapidly dwindling
number, obviously) to go review the fascinating dialogues regarding the
present state of CPR, and MS' "official" (Dean Lester) and unofficial
(beta testers...I mean "official" beta testers, not just people who
bought the beta sim for $50) responses. If you think you've seen the
whole story in here, you are mistaken.

Regards

Bart Brown

I might ask you the same thing, since none of that lengthy message
contradicted what I said.

You are still complaining about CPR. Fine. I don't like CPR either, or
how MS handled it. I still say that's no reason to be religious about
other products Microsoft produces, which really have nothing to do
with CPR. Be cautious, yes, as with several other developers who have
on occasion failed to deliver the goods (Sierra, Activision, etc.),
and don't buy until you try the demo and are satisfied with the
quality. But I'm capable of evaluating products on a case by case
basis.

Joe

I was not here on this NG for this but, having seen the venom for CPR here
I guess I can understand why they left. Now dont misunderstand me I am not
saying any developer should let the heat get to them but, I also understand
what it is to be human and well can you really blame anyone if they have
had enough and decide there is nothing to be more to be gained here?

I guess you have not heard about or seen screen shots of the new Motocross
sim?

Man Im sorry but I think your way off base here. You know sometimes folks
like
you sound like spoiled little brats! Most if not all sims need help right?
Didn't so many yell and scream and flame about N2 3Dfx patch?
By spoiled little brat I mean you think all companies can give instant
satisfaction
to all who ask for all titles? How long has CPR been out? How long has
others
been out that still need much work? It is not surprising to me that MS/ TRI
left
this NG and no other sim developer ever shows their face here.
It is because of this absolute non tolerance zealot attitude.

 See here it is a prime example in your own words " certainly not alone
amongst software publishers "
They are saying it is a good sim so what? Man you ever hear of advertising?
Do any sims come out
and say hey this isn't too good but hey buy it? As far as whether or not it
is good is a matter of opinion
are you allowing any to have one besides yourself? Now you know I have
spoken up many times for
this sim. You know why? No I am not stupid, I happen to think it has many
many good qualities.
I will also say right here right now it also has some problems most of
which I have worked around others
I know I never will as it will take a patch. So what? I still say it is a
dam good 1st attempt and I will buy CPR2
if it happens.

See same old story. Who is really playing head games? Then you come
back with that same we want it now whaaaaaaaaaaaa whaaaaaaaaaaa.
Then if we cant have it RIGHT now well that must mean they gave up
end of the line woe is me :-( Get a grip !!

I think this is totally appropriate when dealing with children like you.
As you never hear the answer. They said they are committed to it right?
What part of that don't you understand? Oh right its that I want my bottle
now
thing isn't it Bart? whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Mike

bend over like he does and be good accepting little girls.

   Hey Mike, go get yourself another leaning tower of pizza project for
your construction company will ya!

If you're actually interested in the FACTS of the matter, rather than
your personal perception of me (about which I could not care less,
believe me), go the the Apex website, check out DejaNews, judge for
yourself. If you're too lazy to do that, and want to come in during the
middle of the third act and act like you know the story, talk to
yourself -- I haven't got time.

Bart Brown

If you're actually interested in the FACTS of the matter, rather than
your personal perception of me (about which I could not care less,
believe me), go the the Apex website, check out DejaNews, judge for
yourself. If you're too lazy to do that, and want to come in during the
middle of the third act and act like you know the story, talk to
yourself -- I haven't got time.

Bart Brown

Ahh, now I see what you're getting at. Actually, it's quite the other
way 'round -- 8 years of experience with Microsoft products has made me
somewhat cynical about anything with their banner affixed to it. Biased?
You bet! Justifiably? I sure think so. I won't even go into the
stupendous corporate cynicism behind the hacked apps and OS's designed
with built-in planned obsolescence of such immediacy as to make US
automakers of the '60s look like the staff of Consumer Reports; or MS'
"intertwined" OS/browser arguments which assumed everyone in the
Department of Justice had IQs barely in the double digits. Here's a
story, fresh this morning from ZDNet (Ziff-Davis Publishing -- you know,
those TOTALLY anti-MS/WIN/DOS folks who publish PC World and PC Week.
Uhh, for the benefit of the language-impaired, that was irony/sarcasm):

Is Microsoft Ripping Off its Beta Testers?
URL:
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Berst Alert
Jesse Berst, Editorial DirectorZDNet AnchorDesk
Monday, March 23, 1998

You're very ill so you go to a doctor. He says he's testing a new drug
that could make him a multimillionaire. Would you like to try it? It may
save your life. Or it may kill you.

Oh, by the way, he's going to charge you to be his guinea pig. And you
have to pay in advance.

That's how many computer users must feel these days since Microsoft
invited 100,000 home users to preview Win98. Previewers pay $29.95,
($39.95 Canada) plus shipping, handling and tax to get a first look at
Microsoft's OS-in-waiting.

MS says it's merely responding to customer demand. It can't afford to
give free copies to all the people who want a preview, so it is making
it available at a nominal fee* for those who want to test it. Certainly
consumers don't have to participate.

But I am concerned that Microsoft may be taking advantage of its
*** position. Though this is a consumer release, many users --
developers and system administrators for example --don't want a  preview
so much as they need one. As much information in advance to prepare for
what's ahead is essential. Same is true for that ever-growing
work-at-home population.

They're trapped. And MS is taking advantage of that fact. Dont believe
me? Just look at the terms of the beta preview:

No discount, rebate or free upgrade when the final is released
MS only supports "critical" issues
Beta expires December 98  
MS doesn't want your feedback

What a contrast to the browser wars. Microsoft has browser competitors,
so it gives its Internet Explorer away for free. But since there's no OS
competitor, Microsoft can overcharge for the product AND charge
consumers to test it. MS could provide a download (albeit a hefty one)
and save the materials costs for consumers. But then there'd be no extra
cash for Microsoft.

So, is Microsoft providing a needed service at a fair fee? Or is it
taking advantage of the fact it has no competition?

*From another ZDNet article:

"  As technical beta testers get to put RC-0 through its paces, home
   consumers--up to 100,000 of them who agree to pay $29.95 -- can
   receive beta copies of the CD version of Windows 98 Beta 3. Microsoft
   is advertising the consumer beta, which began this week, as a program
   for home, rather than corporate, customers. Officials said the fee
   charged to consumers covers the cost of shipping, handling and
   technical support."

That's a lot of money for shipping and handling. And remember, for
technical support, "MS only supports 'critical' issues".

Nice deal, huh?

See any parallels with CPR?

Bart Brown

Interested in whose facts yours? Nope I am perfectly capable as I said of
having my own opinion. As far as personal opinion of you well, I too could
care less
yet its funny you like to dish it out but cant take the same eh?
You crack me up with " go to the Apex" I have been there from the start.
Perhaps you would have noticed that but YOU only have been there long
enough to
post you childish gibberish in fact I think you posted once and it was
gibberish.
Where do you get off thinking I have not judged for myself? Listen you
little
*** with ears from now on keep it here on this NG dont mail your bullshit
to my E-mail address got it? I have seen this from you before with others
on this NG.
You want to respond to a NG posting in your way then do it here. You want
mail?
Your screwing with the wrong person, I will send you something that will
take you
2 months to sort & cure !! You've been warned wise up.

Mike

Umm Byron you have me confused with one of your punk boy friends!

Well that's fair enough, I don't really disagree with anything you've
posted. Microsoft has certainly gotten up to their share of "dirty
tricks" over the years, especially with operating systems, and that
"pay for the beta" idea reallys stinks I agree.

But they are a software behemoth, and they produce a lot of programs.
Every now and then one of them is pretty good. I don't really see what
good it would do to deprive myself of the good ones.

Joe

<<Your screwing with the wrong person, I will send you something that
will take you 2 months to sort & cure !! You've been warned wise up.

Mike>>

I have sent your threat to your ISP, and have informed them of my
intention to contact the FCC should they choose not to act on what is at
least a violation of TOS, and quite possibly an actionable offense.

A disagreement over a game in a newsgroup is one thing; a threat to
attempt to trash my system is quite another, even in light of the fact
(of which I'm sure you were unaware) that I do all my work and all my
Net/Web access on a Mac -- which I'm afraid is quite immune to your
"something that will take you 2 months to sort & cure". I only use a PC
for *** -- which is really all it's good for at any rate.

You've screwed with the wrong person.

Bart Brown

Bart Brown