I've heard that the updated version was supposed to be out by last
Christmas but so far nothing and the stores don't know diddly!
Any info is much appreciated!
I can't get into this newsgroup easily (ssslllooowwww system) so
please direct replies to:
MicroProse UK have told me that yes, Crammond is working on a new
game, but that they know nothing about it, not even a title, let
alone its contents. It's hoped that it will be released in the second
half of this year but it's basically a case of wait and see.
I know it's contrary to my previously stated opinion but I'd prefer
a long wait for a good game than a Papyrus-style rush job; there's
plenty of life left in v1 still, IMHO.
Chisa
-- Gizmo
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Launchpad is an experimental internet BBS. The views of its users do not
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Does Crammond have an E-mail address? Although this doesn't interest
many people here (mainly PC-users, I guess..), F1GP's Atari version sold
far over 50.000 copies - and I think that's a reason good enough to hope
for F1GP version 2 for Atari ST/TT/Falcon, too. Geoff Crammond is a
Atari/Amiga guru what comes to programming, but I fear those damned
"commercial interests" may prevent him from programming for Atari any longer.
It's funny; most software houses who abandon some hardware platform, like
Amiga or Atari, (often in a very rude way, too), don't seem to understand
that we "minority" customers will remember the way they treated us, even
if we switched to some more popular computer later...
I have supported MicroProse by buying their excellent software. If some
idiot there suddenly decides that "there's no sense in caring about some
of our old customers any longer" - I most certainly will not be their
customer in the future. And nobody should. Business is business, but
loyalty to people who are your customers, is as important. Software
houses who don't see that, are like car dealers who take the money, and
refuse to help you after the sale is done. They deserve no respect.
Too many games makers behave like that, today. I must therefore give my
thanks to French SILMARILS. They still care about their customers, and
hopefully will do that in the future, too (they even support Atari Falcon)!
I wonder, how it is with MicroProse today...
Yeah, and what about all those angry VIC-20 users who were abandoned...
C'mon, get with the program. You bought the wrong machine!
--opinions expressed belong to a lot of people on whose behalf I speak--
: Not as far as I know. That's probably a Good Thing because if he did
: he'd have to spend all day answering mail and would never write anything...
That might be the danger ;-) Still, it'd be nice to get some messages
through to the guys who program the stuff. Without too much trouble.
: If "commercial interests" means making enough money to stay in
: business, what do you expect? I'd be surprised if F1GP has sold more
: than a few thousand ST copies in the past year; maybe the Amiga is
: doing better. You are the first ST player I've heard of on this group,
: whereas the Amiga guys seem quite numerous.
Do you guess, how many times I have heard the same thing - with different
words? O.k. You're right in that competition is so hard today, that
there's no room for products that create moderately, or no profit. It's
tough business, if anything.
Still, I have to say something against your words: I doubt that Silmarils
makes much profit by supporting Atari Falcon (which is a totally
different machine from the old ST). So, why do they support it? Because
they're naive idealists, or fools? Hardly so. They have created an
automated system that ports the PC-version of some given game to Falcon
in two weeks, and with little effort. And the results have been good!
So: WHY bother? Because with this little effort for them, they make
people like me (and very many of my friends, too) happy customers. They
do show us that even minority customers MEAN something to them.
That's really something, I think.
They wouldn't have to do it - but in a tough business, it's nice to see
that at least some people still care. Do you see that stupid?
: Don't get me wrong, I have two STs at home and an Amiga, and I'm fond
: as hell of them, but those machines are effectively dead, and anyone
: writing a "major" game has to face the reality that outside of consoles
: the PC is now by far and away the *** games platform. Sad but true.
No computer is dead as long as many people enjoy using them, and buy
software - is it? You know it as well as I, that ST and Amiga faced a
chain-reaction somewhere in 1992..3. First, some games makers announced
that they no longer support those platforms. After that, the rest
followed - even firms whose ST/Amiga games were highly profitable, like
MicroProse. Then the same happened with retailers. We were left with
hundreds of thousands of people who _would_ like to buy software, but
nobody would sell them it... It's like burying someone who's still quite
alive.
: MicroProse have supported the ST and Amiga for a lot longer than I
: would have if I were in their position. Be grateful for that and
: the many hours of pleasure their software has given you, and be sorry
: for them that they can no longer justify producing software for
: machines which were simply unlucky enough to be squashed by the
: steel boots of IBM and MicroSoft.
Well, I still like think that we, buyers, have the power to decide which
machines and programs sell - and which don't. Whatever people like to
think, today it's mostly vice versa. We buy what sells well, without much
thinking. I can't change that - but I don't think I'm completely alone
with these thoughts, either. Well, it's a tough world 8-) !
: End of sermon. :-)
Happy *** =-)
: Chisa
TH
Not as far as I know. That's probably a Good Thing because if he did
he'd have to spend all day answering mail and would never write anything...
If "commercial interests" means making enough money to stay in
business, what do you expect? I'd be surprised if F1GP has sold more
than a few thousand ST copies in the past year; maybe the Amiga is
doing better. You are the first ST player I've heard of on this group,
whereas the Amiga guys seem quite numerous.
Don't get me wrong, I have two STs at home and an Amiga, and I'm fond
as hell of them, but those machines are effectively dead, and anyone
writing a "major" game has to face the reality that outside of consoles
the PC is now by far and away the *** games platform. Sad but true.
Those software houses have to respond to changes in the market or
they will go under. Moving to the PC is IMHO just as valid a way
of supporting their customers as sticking with dying platforms; I
was forced to go PC by practicalities and I'm glad MPS followed
me and provided my favorite game on that platform, instead of saying
"oh no, the PC is ***and we're going to stick with the Amiga and
ST until we go bankrupt".
MicroProse have supported the ST and Amiga for a lot longer than I
would have if I were in their position. Be grateful for that and
the many hours of pleasure their software has given you, and be sorry
for them that they can no longer justify producing software for
machines which were simply unlucky enough to be squashed by the
steel boots of IBM and MicroSoft.
End of sermon. :-)
Chisa
-- Gizmo
--
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Launchpad is an experimental internet BBS. The views of its users do not
necessarily represent those of UNC-Chapel Hill, OIT, or the SysOps.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
[...]
Should they develop games for the Cray Y/MP? Plenty of power there. Or
SGI Unix boxes - great graphics hardware. Of course not, there's a very,
very small market for games there, but the principle's the same.
I agree that comparisons to a Vic-20 are not helpful, but even the
Falcon is pretty wimpy compared to a decent PC (even a reltively
low-spec 486SX/25, and not really with any more raw CPU horsepower
than a 386DX/22). It doesn't matter how much custom hardware it's
got, it still can't hope to match my P90 (but I sincerely hope
MPS don't make a P90 a "requirement" for v2!). The Amiga A500
struggled to run the original and neither it nor the ST can hope
to run the next generation game, which narrows the markets yet
more (in the Atari's case, to almost nothing).
On a side note; I hope that in the next couple of years we'll start to
see the *** use of CPU time in these types of games move from
running the graphics to running the AI. That means machines with a
lot of raw grunt like Pentium-based PCs will really start to blow
consoles away.
You may buy any computer you like... but don't expect anyone else to
write software for it unless _you_ are prepared to pay for it. Sheer
number of PC owners makes it good sense for games companies to develop
for the PC, something which is no longer true for any other machine
outside of the console market.
I don't like it any more than you do, but that's the way it is. I will
not post again on this thread since it's way off topic, but if anyone
wants to discuss it via e-mail feel free. Flames always welcome,
change given! :-)
Oh yeah, for the record I have a P90, a 386DX/33, two STs (one an
STe), an Amiga 500, a Vic-20, and a Psion 3a. And I love 'em all.
:-(
-- Gizmo
--
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Launchpad is an experimental internet BBS. The views of its users do not
necessarily represent those of UNC-Chapel Hill, OIT, or the SysOps.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
O.k. Let's change the subject, before the others will get cozmic
halluzinations and other *** syndroms.. ;-)
So, the "last words":
: Should they develop games for the Cray Y/MP? Plenty of power there. Or
: SGI Unix boxes - great graphics hardware. Of course not, there's a very,
: very small market for games there, but the principle's the same.
Well, why not? If the porting is easy and inexpensive, like in Falcon's
case, that would give the games producers at least some interesting image
advantages. When everybody acts the same, like they do today, nobody
raises their heads from the crowd above others. Business isn't just
money, after all.
: I agree that comparisons to a Vic-20 are not helpful, but even the
: Falcon is pretty wimpy compared to a decent PC (even a reltively
: low-spec 486SX/25, and not really with any more raw CPU horsepower
: than a 386DX/22). It doesn't matter how much custom hardware it's
: got, it still can't hope to match my P90 (but I sincerely hope
: MPS don't make a P90 a "requirement" for v2!). The Amiga A500
: struggled to run the original and neither it nor the ST can hope
: to run the next generation game, which narrows the markets yet
: more (in the Atari's case, to almost nothing).
Well, I don't fully agree on that.. The DSP is a curious thing; it can do
things with 3D graphics that ordinary processors can't do very well.
Also, hardware scrolling and things like that, may save much precious CPU
time. Falcon is capable of real-time morphing (Apex Media software),
which takes lots of muscles. I agree, however, on that ST and A500 are
yesterday's computers.
One thing programmers argue a lot about, is this: PC games tend to be
very slow compared with the hardware they're used with. The program
developement seems to happen today with such hurry, that there isn't time
to optimize the code, or use neat tricks. If you look at F1GP for A500
and ST, it's a miracle that the game runs even that fast on a 7.16 or 8
MHz 16 bit machine. Still, these versions use no Blitter co-processor,
nor any other hardware tricks either. Geoff Crammond just has done some
guru-class programming with assembler. Elite 2 Frontier is another
example of very good 68000 programming. Then there are those games that
use Amiga's and ST's hardware more extensively. Skillful use of hardware
and assembler often makes it possible to port an "impossible" game to
smaller machines. It just takes more effort and time - and unfortunately
neither is available for systems that sell relatively poorly.
: On a side note; I hope that in the next couple of years we'll start to
: see the *** use of CPU time in these types of games move from
: running the graphics to running the AI. That means machines with a
: lot of raw grunt like Pentium-based PCs will really start to blow
: consoles away.
I agree on that. Still, conseles like new 64-bit beasts, seem to have
enough MIPS to match a Pentium.
: You may buy any computer you like... but don't expect anyone else to
: write software for it unless _you_ are prepared to pay for it. Sheer
: number of PC owners makes it good sense for games companies to develop
: for the PC, something which is no longer true for any other machine
: outside of the console market.
Well, nobody said the world's perfect..!
: I don't like it any more than you do, but that's the way it is. I will
: not post again on this thread since it's way off topic, but if anyone
: wants to discuss it via e-mail feel free. Flames always welcome,
: change given! :-)
Although this subject irritates some people (mostly those who think with
their asses instead of brain ;-), I find this pretty interesting. Your
opinions make sense, so there's no need to flame more (disappointed?).
: Oh yeah, for the record I have a P90, a 386DX/33, two STs (one an
: STe), an Amiga 500, a Vic-20, and a Psion 3a. And I love 'em all.
For my record:
An Atari Falcon-030/420 with Direct-to-disk 16 bit sound processing and
real-time effects using Digital Signal Processor. And a lowsy 386DX20
laptop I'm using right now, sigh.. ;-(
Cheers,
TH
Ben Benson
