rec.autos.simulators

Gentlemen, I think we are witnessing the end of Papyrus as we know it.
I have followed the newsgroup for a very long time and several things
that have happened have lead me to believe there will be no Nascar 3,
NROS, or Grand Prix Legends. I have listed below my reasoning.

1.  EA has acquired exclusive Nascar license.   I am not sure if if an
exclusive licensing but there seemed to be a heavy emphasis on it in
the press releases at both EA and Nascar.  EA made a Nascar game
before for the playstation and there wasnt such a big deal made about
it, this announcement seemed bigger.

2.  Papyrus went to E3 but set up five blocks away from the convention
center.  That seems to be the action of a company who is trying to
keep a very low profile which seems odd for a company who is
supposedly partnering with Nascar next month to start NROS.  I would
think they would have demoing the heck out of that at the convention,
with Nascar helping by supplying a Cup driver on the other end to race
against.  I mean this was supposed to be a certified Nascar division.

3.  Papyrus demoed SODA but NOT Grand Prix Legends.  That leads me to
believe that SODA will be the last game Papyrus releases.  It was too
close to done to not release it.  You know they have at least an alpha
version of Grand Prix Legends to demo if they wanted to.

4. Ed Martin left Papyrus, why would a guy who put everything into
NROS leave before it started?  I mean this is the kind of project that
could be your meal ticket for years to come.  I bet Ed still reads
this newsgroup and would love to reply but I am sure he signed a legal
agreement when he left Sierra.  Who has Papyrus officially replaced Ed
with?  

5.  Who is really left from the original Papyrus?  I dont know maybe
someone in  ras knows.  I also wondered what has happened to our
friend Tony Johns?  I wonder if he has regretted his decision to go to
Papyrus yet?  I hope for his sake it works out for him, he seemed to
be a really nice guy.

It would be really easy to blame Sierra in all of this, but lets
remember that Papyrus sold to Sierra.  Papyrus wasnt a publicly traded
company so they didnt have to sell they chose to.  It seems those top
Papyrus guys sold their company took their cash and bolted.   I hope I
am wrong on this but there does seem to be a lot of signs pointing
towards the end of Papyrus.

Take care

Greg Alexander

Nascar98 is a Playstation only title so far.  Keep in mind that none of
EA's other sports titles are really what I'd call exclusive.

This decision was made by CUC, not Papyrus.  As Jim S. has stated, CUC
wanted to be away from the lights and noise of the Congress Center floor to
get full attention and knew that they were big enough to get away with it
(Papy, Dynamix, Sierra, Blizzard, Valve).  It may have been inconvienent
for us, but the press would make the hike regardless (just to see Half-life
in action was worth the walk).

SODA is due out this winter is isn't even in a pre-alpha stage, thus it was
being shown behind closed doors to press only.  Neither GPL nor the NRO
were at a stage that Papy deemed it would be worth showing them off.

While I can't comment on the reasons around Ed's departure (it would be
mere speculation), Dave Matson is now his replacment.

Hm... in just over a year Papy has lost about 3 people who were in a high
enough position for us to know about, Rick Genter, Ed Martin, and Jim
Sokoloff.

Relax, Papy isn't going anywhere.

--


http://ebusch.akorn.net

I don't see why SODA would be the last game Papy releases, just because
they didn't show GPL. SODA is probably in it's pre-alpha/alpha stage, and
will be released this Fall/Winter. GPL will be released next Spring, so
they
probably don't have anything that is really worth showing off. Of course
there
will be future games, but since any of those won't be released until
Fall/Winter
of '98 (or until GPL has been released, at least), Papyrus won't have
anything
else worth showing off.

I don't know why Ed left, but I think that Rick left because he wanted
more creative freedom. Jim left to another company (don't know which
one), and I think it was because it would be better for him in the
long-run.
Just because a few people leave a company, doesn't mean that the
company is in trouble.

I think you are wrong on this...Papyrus isn't going to end any time soon.

--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Alan J. Claffie             PARSIMONIOUS      Internet Grand National
aclaffie 'at' bgnn.com         RACING             #93 Buick Riviera
       Southern New England Correspondent for "The Racin' Paper"
      WWW.BGNN.COM - NASCAR's Busch North Series on the Internet
---
SPAMbot bait below:

The license is not exclusive, and it seems to only be for console
games(PSX, Sony, etc...) See this blip below.....

Electronic Arts (Nasdaq:ERTS), a leading global interactive entertainment
software company, announced at the Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3)
trade show that it had acquired the interactive rights to the National
Association for Stock Car Auto Racing, Inc.

The license grants Electronic Arts (EA) the rights to develop a series of
interactive racing games, based on NASCAR racing. The first game to be
developed using this key license is NASCAR 98 and is due to ship in the
Fall of 1997 on the PlayStation and Sega Saturn.

They have said that it was chosen for companies, not people like us.....

Could be that since SODA is supposed to be out in Winter97 and GPL is not
going to be out until Spring 98 that GPL may not far enough along to show
it. I don't see anything funny here...

Why did he leave? Uh, better job? More money? Better people?

We can only hope that you have not seen the future....

--
Mike's Nascar World
http://www.netins.net/showcase/mpete/nascar.html

Stop on by, what can it hurt?

CUC Software made that decision, presumably because they know they can
afford to get a captive audience by forcing them away from the sound and
fury of the rest of E3.

Yeah, everyone KNOWS that there's an alpha version of GPL to demo. Hell,
they're probably just going to sit on it for a few years until the
technology is totally outdated. By the way, all those same people know
what's in Area 51.

I'm sure you know the answer, since you claim to have been following the
Papy news closely. I find it strange that you, someone that I've never
heard of, is "sure" about what legal agreements exist between Papyrus
and former employees. I certainly didn't see you cc'd on any of the exit
paperwork when I left.

Most of the heavy hitters: read the manuals and credits for IndyCar,
NASCAR1, ICR2, and N2. Pretty much everyone who makes Papyrus games
great is still there.

Any healthy company has some non-zero level of employee turnover. It's
unavoidable. Another company came in and made me an offer that was in my
best interest. I miss Papyrus, but I still know I did the right thing by
taking the other opportunity; can't blame Papy for that one. Rick Genter
left to start his own game company; can anyone blame Papyrus for that?
As much as you'd like to think otherwise, there is life outside of
Papyrus, and sometimes employees of any company will leave to find
another pasture. Sometimes it's money, sometimes it's following their
dream, sometimes it's following their spouse,sometimes it's just for a
change of pace.

Papy's not going anywhere as far I can tell, *** theories aside.
---Jim

   (snip)

Hi Greg,
   Your NROS statement may be a bit premature. In the last couple of
days TEN reps have been very active on the TEN news server, answering
NROS questions and giving a bit of technical advice on the upcoming
NROS. Sean Butcher and Dave Matson have also posted there, as well.
   Seems to me that the NROS is going to be a reality.

Regards,
Gavel

I'll give you a hint, which doesn't rely on inside information: CUC is a
publicly traded company. If EA had an exclusive license to NASCAR
products, and CUC is aware of this, don't you believe that CUC would
have to disclose this relevant material fact (that they would be unable
to produce NASCAR games) to their shareholders? Checking my Maxxnet news
feed, I don't see any such story... From that, draw what conclusions you
will...

---Jim

Nascar98 is a Playstation only title so far.  Keep in mind that none of
EA's other sports titles are really what I'd call exclusive.

This decision was made by CUC, not Papyrus.  As Jim S. has stated, CUC
wanted to be away from the lights and noise of the Congress Center floor to
get full attention and knew that they were big enough to get away with it
(Papy, Dynamix, Sierra, Blizzard, Valve).  It may have been inconvienent
for us, but the press would make the hike regardless (just to see Half-life
in action was worth the walk).

SODA is due out this winter is isn't even in a pre-alpha stage, thus it was
being shown behind closed doors to press only.  Neither GPL nor the NRO
were at a stage that Papy deemed it would be worth showing them off.

While I can't comment on the reasons around Ed's departure (it would be
mere speculation), Dave Matson is now his replacment.

Hm... in just over a year Papy has lost about 3 people who were in a high
enough position for us to know about, Rick Genter, Ed Martin, and Jim
Sokoloff.

Relax, Papy isn't going anywhere.

--


http://ebusch.akorn.net

If that was their strategy I hope they found it to be successful.  I
personally thought that was the beauty of these conventions, being
able to see all the companies under one roof looking and comparing
each companies products.

If there isnt an alpha version of GPL then there isnt but from my
understanding they didnt preview NROS which is supposed to start in
late July.  Is there not an alpha for that one either?  BTW I think
that Elvis and YMenard are in Area 51, but please dont tell anyone I
know.

I dont know the answer that is why I posed a rhetorical question.  I
wish Ed were still with Papyrus.  I thought he was doing an good job.
I am sorry you have never heard of me, I didnt know that was a
requisite to either read or post in a Usenet newsgroup.  The use of
the word sure on my part was an error and I retract that, but I still
find it odd that a guy who posted in here on a regular basis doesnt
post at all anymore.  I enjoyed his posts and his candor.

I am also familiar with that also, I too have left companies for
better opportunities.  If that was the case with all these people then
good for them.  I am sorry that you didnt like my post, but those were
just my opinions.  I am not an expert, nor did I claim to be.  I do
however read ras every day and wanted to offer my opinions for general
discussion.  I didnt want to burn down Nasnet or lead ras.   I have
enjoyed Papyrus games and hope they continue to lead the auto
simulation world, but as a consumer I also appreciate honest,  candid
information.  Thanks for you response and best wishes

Greg Alexander

I agree completely. Right now, all we know is that NASNET is ending. But
really, i think its safe to papy is to. Hopefully, with these crappy
games they should...

I agree to a degree.  For example look at Dynamix when Sierra purchased it.  
They had an excellent game FPS: Football and Football Pro and FPS: Baseball.  
But through the years the product line from Dyanmix has degraded over the years
(Football 96, 97, etc.) and can only be attributed to the fact that the
original members of Dynamix are gone and replaced with people who have much
less expertise in the area than the original guys.  Same thing is happening to
Papyrus.  Original employees are leaving and being replaced with people with
less expertise in racing sims.  Through the years you'll probably see less
quality products released from Papyrus.

Boy, I don't know where to begin.  I'd rather not get into a long post
here, but I am continually amazed at how these posts get started.  

Papyrus has been in a very fortunate position over the last few years
by being the only game company with a NASCAR license.  We have been
very successful with our NASCAR products (as has NASCAR) and have a
great working relationship with NASCAR.  NASCAR made a decision to
allow EA interactive rights to their property as well.  Would we
prefer to be the only NASCAR player in town?  You bet, but it's not
the case anymore.  Does that mean we won't be doing anymore NASCAR
products?  ABSOLUTELY NOT.  We are committed to that license and
improving our NASCAR games in the future (we are also committed to
expanding our product line into other racing series, and by the way,
we have not given up on CART).  

This competition between EA and Papyrus can only help one group,
that's you the customer.  (Actually, I think it can really help the
developers at EA and Papyrus create better product).

As far as EA having more muscle to "edge" Papyrus out of the NASCAR
license, remember that Papyrus is part of Sierra which is part of CUC
which also owns Davidson, Blizzard, Berkely Systems, among others.
CUC has plenty of money and muscle to stay right in this market.

Adam Levesque
General Manager - Papyrus

: I agree to a degree.  For example look at Dynamix when Sierra purchased it.  
: They had an excellent game FPS: Football and Football Pro and FPS: Baseball.  
: But through the years the product line from Dyanmix has degraded over the years
: (Football 96, 97, etc.) and can only be attributed to the fact that the
: original members of Dynamix are gone and replaced with people who have much
: less expertise in the area than the original guys.  Same thing is happening to
: Papyrus.  Original employees are leaving and being replaced with people with
: less expertise in racing sims.  Through the years you'll probably see less
: quality products released from Papyrus.

It's good to hear from someone who is on the inside and "knows" exactly
what is going on in Sierra/Dynamix/Papyrus, NOT!

Dynamix made a dramatic change in their direction because this was were
they wanted to go even before Sierra bought them out.  They were just
able to take that direction due to the backing of Sierra and the added
funds and resources.  Was this the right direction?

You would leave us to believe that not a single person ever left Papyrus
before Sierra purchased them.  Though I don't have the facts, I find
this a hard cookie to swallow.  The only company that I know of where
no one ever left of their own accord is the Mafia. <g>

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

        Will Papyrus/Sierra make a patch to allow internet team play for ICR2 (I
guess Nascar2 has a patch that will allow this)?  Is Sierra still
supporting additions to this program?

        Ok, but I hope you will remember those of us with not the latest hardware
(Pentium 90 not MMX 16MB ram).