rec.autos.simulators

by **Olav K. Malm** » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

> Have you ever considered how best to simulate the effect of a roadway
> rushing towards you at 200kph?
> Of course you have.....after all, part of your task it to portray this
> sensation in a manner that will give the player an effective sense of the
> speed at which a racing car travels.

> However, have you ever considered what my son refers to as "blurring"?

> He said to me last night "Dad", (he calls me that at times) "Dad........why
> don't they BLUR the edges of the picture as it comes towards you?" He then
> went on to explain this question (I obviously looked puzzled to him!) by
> pointing out that when you are driving in a car, the scenery moves towards
> you at (what appears to be) increasing rapidity and the closer it gets the
> more blurred the periphery of the "picture" gets until the edges of the
> road, the sh***y, posts, poles, etc. are simply a blur.

> I tested this theory out today on the way to work and he is absolutely
> correct.

> But this doesn't happen in a sim. I fired up GPL tonight and, at speed down
> Masta straight at Spa, those items on the edge of my vision (as seen from
> the viewpoint of the driver...not me sitting at my desk!) were as clearly
> defined as those items in the centre of the screen a kilometre away.
> I tried it with ICR2, NASCAR3, SCGT...all the same: there is no blurring
> effect a all.

> It is therefore my opinion that one of the effects that a developer could
> look into would be to recreate this real-world factor.

> Is this feasible? Can it be effectively simulated?
> I would be curious to read educated comment.

Good observation by both your son and you, Bruce.

We have a fullsize car and truck simulator here at work, with 3 big
screens in the front, and the effect of a sharp image with bad
framerate on the edges is a real problem.

What we need is the motion-blur effect. Think of a cinematic
movie. It's 24 frames per second, and every computergamer would call
that jerky. But it isn't, because things in movement is blurred if you
study each frame. A frame of movie is what happened during the whole
1/24th of a second, but a frame on the computer is what everything
looks like at that particular time.

There is a very good article somewhere on the web about this, and the
link has been posted many times here on r.a.s. I just can't remember
it, sorry.

btw, the new 3DFX T-buffer is supporting cinematic motion-blur, but
the software has to support it. When new sims will support this
feature, we're talking business.

--
Olav K. Malmin
remove spam when replying

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Have you ever considered how best to simulate the effect of a roadway
rushing towards you at 200kph?
Of course you have.....after all, part of your task it to portray this
sensation in a manner that will give the player an effective sense of the
speed at which a racing car travels.

However, have you ever considered what my son refers to as "blurring"?

He said to me last night "Dad", (he calls me that at times) "Dad........why
don't they BLUR the edges of the picture as it comes towards you?" He then
went on to explain this question (I obviously looked puzzled to him!) by
pointing out that when you are driving in a car, the scenery moves towards
you at (what appears to be) increasing rapidity and the closer it gets the
more blurred the periphery of the "picture" gets until the edges of the
road, the sh***y, posts, poles, etc. are simply a blur.

I tested this theory out today on the way to work and he is absolutely
correct.

But this doesn't happen in a sim. I fired up GPL tonight and, at speed down
Masta straight at Spa, those items on the edge of my vision (as seen from
the viewpoint of the driver...not me sitting at my desk!) were as clearly
defined as those items in the centre of the screen a kilometre away.
I tried it with ICR2, NASCAR3, SCGT...all the same: there is no blurring
effect a all.

It is therefore my opinion that one of the effects that a developer could
look into would be to recreate this real-world factor.

Is this feasible? Can it be effectively simulated?
I would be curious to read educated comment.

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------

by **Andrew Turne** » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Hi Bruce,

I think what you're referring to is the optical effect which happens to objects
and scenery as they pass from your primary to your peripheral vision. I think,
therefore, that to do this successfully, a sim must expand to widescreen or
somehow show peripheral limits, or it would look goofy because not much in your
forward 45 degrees or so of "clear vision" *should* be blurry..

Just a guess.

Andrew

> Have you ever considered how best to simulate the effect of a roadway
> rushing towards you at 200kph?
> Of course you have.....after all, part of your task it to portray this
> sensation in a manner that will give the player an effective sense of the
> speed at which a racing car travels.

> However, have you ever considered what my son refers to as "blurring"?

> He said to me last night "Dad", (he calls me that at times) "Dad........why
> don't they BLUR the edges of the picture as it comes towards you?" He then
> went on to explain this question (I obviously looked puzzled to him!) by
> pointing out that when you are driving in a car, the scenery moves towards
> you at (what appears to be) increasing rapidity and the closer it gets the
> more blurred the periphery of the "picture" gets until the edges of the
> road, the sh***y, posts, poles, etc. are simply a blur.

> I tested this theory out today on the way to work and he is absolutely
> correct.

> But this doesn't happen in a sim. I fired up GPL tonight and, at speed down
> Masta straight at Spa, those items on the edge of my vision (as seen from
> the viewpoint of the driver...not me sitting at my desk!) were as clearly
> defined as those items in the centre of the screen a kilometre away.
> I tried it with ICR2, NASCAR3, SCGT...all the same: there is no blurring
> effect a all.

> It is therefore my opinion that one of the effects that a developer could
> look into would be to recreate this real-world factor.

> Is this feasible? Can it be effectively simulated?
> I would be curious to read educated comment.

> --
> Regards,
> Bruce Kennewell,
> Canberra, Australia.
> ---------------------------

by **Brian V. Balgobin** » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Btw, from a medical student point of few,

The blurring effect is because of your eyes and not because of the speed.
Actually if yuor eyes where 100% perfect that blurring would not accure. And
you can't control if a Sim gives a blurring effect actually. Like you said
that you looked in GPL is actually fooling your own eyes. Cause where you
look the image will be always focussed. That's just the nature of your eyes.
But maybe they will invent something...hack the real things that are
blurring are not blurred in real life to or are they ;)

by **Sinj** » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

I noticed the same thing with an arcade game called Ferrari 355 that
uses 3 screens to wrap around your peripheral vision. The only
problem is that the two side screens (at 45deg angle to main) show the
scenery at the same rate as your forward view. If you look out your
side window while driving a real car trees and stuff are *** by.

While it may be difficult to change the speed of objects in a game
that uses only one monitor I would have thought that a game with 3
unique monitors could have fixed this obvious problem with the
perception of speed.

On Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:33:35 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"

>Have you ever considered how best to simulate the effect of a roadway
>rushing towards you at 200kph?
>Of course you have.....after all, part of your task it to portray this
>sensation in a manner that will give the player an effective sense of the
>speed at which a racing car travels.

>However, have you ever considered what my son refers to as "blurring"?

>He said to me last night "Dad", (he calls me that at times) "Dad........why
>don't they BLUR the edges of the picture as it comes towards you?" He then
>went on to explain this question (I obviously looked puzzled to him!) by
>pointing out that when you are driving in a car, the scenery moves towards
>you at (what appears to be) increasing rapidity and the closer it gets the
>more blurred the periphery of the "picture" gets until the edges of the
>road, the sh***y, posts, poles, etc. are simply a blur.

>I tested this theory out today on the way to work and he is absolutely
>correct.

>But this doesn't happen in a sim. I fired up GPL tonight and, at speed down
>Masta straight at Spa, those items on the edge of my vision (as seen from
>the viewpoint of the driver...not me sitting at my desk!) were as clearly
>defined as those items in the centre of the screen a kilometre away.
>I tried it with ICR2, NASCAR3, SCGT...all the same: there is no blurring
>effect a all.

>It is therefore my opinion that one of the effects that a developer could
>look into would be to recreate this real-world factor.

>Is this feasible? Can it be effectively simulated?
>I would be curious to read educated comment.

>--
>Regards,
>Bruce Kennewell,
>Canberra, Australia.
>---------------------------

by No » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

On Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:33:35 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"

It's possible to do on a Voodoo5, but I doubt any developer would do
it for one video card.
--
Nos

by **Brian V. Balgobin** » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Your right,

Every Sim team should add a doctor to the team to tell them how a person
acts physically;)

Brian "Racing Doctor" Balgobind

PS: in 6 years papy can give me the job if they want ;))

by **Bill Met** » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Exactly correct. There was a human anatomy series on the Discovery Channel
in which the host (who is a Doctor) stated that only the center 10-20% of
the image on your retina is optically in focus. That wonderful rendering
engine in between your ears interpolates the rest.

--
| "Instead of letting the moon be the
Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let
Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our

by **Stephen Ferguso** » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Good points Bruce. What I was thinking the other day while motoring along
at a mere 150 on a two-lane motorway, rather like the tracks one finds in
NFS, was that the perception of speed isn't so far off in a lot of games.
Everyone seems to be expecting Wipeout2087 levels of visual stimulus, but at
speeds up to 200kph, unless you have a lot of scenery very close to you,
there isn't an overwhelming sense of speed. Unless you drive a Caterham.

By the way, Rally Championship nails it on the head with a feeling of speed,
but only when the scenery closes in on the sides. I actually think it's all
fine, but motion blur at the edges would be a nice touch. Notice,
NFS:Porsche tries a clever trick with subtly blurred textures. Not exactly
what you have in mind, but I find it contributes to the feeling, and looks
good in replays.

Stephen

by **Dave Henri** » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

3dfx is trying to tackle that problem with their Motion Blur T-buffer
technology. But from what I can tell it hasn't been too well received
yet.
But I can tell you the Playstation 2 can do a blurring effect and in a
recent tradeshow report I saw...the motion blur was referred to as the
MOST OVER_USED EFFECT. I would assume they looked on it like many do
the sunglare common now in many sims.
dave henrie

> Have you ever considered how best to simulate the effect of a roadway
> rushing towards you at 200kph?

by **Brian V. Balgobin** » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Hey Marc,

Nice to see that i'm not the only one too;)

I'm from the Netherlands and this is my first year...wel almost my second
year if i pass this month:)
I'm already in a online team started the team since last year when we
competed in the RS2 League. Check out the team at www.gssilver.cjb.net We
are trying to compete at different front's now and have a good line up of
drivers. We are open for all drivers from all levels.

Brian "Racing Doctor" Balgobind

> hey brian-
> i thought i was the only med student on here! nice to meet you.....where
are
> you? maybe we could form an online team....

> mark

> > Btw, from a medical student point of few,

> > The blurring effect is because of your eyes and not because of the
speed.
> > Actually if yuor eyes where 100% perfect that blurring would not accure.
> And
> > you can't control if a Sim gives a blurring effect actually. Like you
said
> > that you looked in GPL is actually fooling your own eyes. Cause where
you
> > look the image will be always focussed. That's just the nature of your
> eyes.
> > But maybe they will invent something...hack the real things that are
> > blurring are not blurred in real life to or are they ;)

> > > Have you ever considered how best to simulate the effect of a roadway
> > > rushing towards you at 200kph?
> > > Of course you have.....after all, part of your task it to portray this
> > > sensation in a manner that will give the player an effective sense of
> the
> > > speed at which a racing car travels.

> > > However, have you ever considered what my son refers to as "blurring"?

> > > He said to me last night "Dad", (he calls me that at times)
> > "Dad........why
> > > don't they BLUR the edges of the picture as it comes towards you?" He
> > then
> > > went on to explain this question (I obviously looked puzzled to him!)
by
> > > pointing out that when you are driving in a car, the scenery moves
> towards
> > > you at (what appears to be) increasing rapidity and the closer it gets
> the
> > > more blurred the periphery of the "picture" gets until the edges of
the
> > > road, the sh***y, posts, poles, etc. are simply a blur.

> > > I tested this theory out today on the way to work and he is absolutely
> > > correct.

> > > But this doesn't happen in a sim. I fired up GPL tonight and, at
speed
> > down
> > > Masta straight at Spa, those items on the edge of my vision (as seen
> from
> > > the viewpoint of the driver...not me sitting at my desk!) were as
> clearly
> > > defined as those items in the centre of the screen a kilometre away.
> > > I tried it with ICR2, NASCAR3, SCGT...all the same: there is no
blurring
> > > effect a all.

> > > It is therefore my opinion that one of the effects that a developer
> could
> > > look into would be to recreate this real-world factor.

> > > Is this feasible? Can it be effectively simulated?
> > > I would be curious to read educated comment.

> > > --
> > > Regards,
> > > Bruce Kennewell,
> > > Canberra, Australia.
> > > ---------------------------

by **JTW620** » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Bruce,
That's a great idea. As Olav pointed out, when you look at a still movie
frame of high speed motion, there's a blur. When calculating a screen to be
drawn, there isn't one. I wrote a wireframe 3-D engine to test motion models
with and wondered how a spinning wheel might be blurred. I hadn't thought of
blurring the rest of the scenery (not that you'd want to see a blurred wire
frame scene anyway). One trick could be to sort of "connect" the last frame
lines and current frame lines/points/textures together somewhat, as the blur in
motion pictures comes from the movement of objects while the camera shutter is
still open. They're connected, aside from the period where the shutter is
closed.

For computer modeling, suppose a wheel is spinning 30 times per second, and
your frame rate is 30 fps. Looking at the lugnuts and other markings, the
wheel will look like it's standing stilll. In a movie frame, each lugnut would
rotate a certain distance while the camera shutter was open and appear as a
solid curved line. At 30 rotations/second, that would be 360 degrees, easy to
calculate. I'm sure texture maps could be connected this way too.
Definately possible, Bruce.

Todd Wasson

by **Mark Stah** » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

hey brian-
i thought i was the only med student on here! nice to meet you.....where are
you? maybe we could form an online team....

mark

> Btw, from a medical student point of few,

> The blurring effect is because of your eyes and not because of the speed.
> Actually if yuor eyes where 100% perfect that blurring would not accure.
And
> you can't control if a Sim gives a blurring effect actually. Like you said
> that you looked in GPL is actually fooling your own eyes. Cause where you
> look the image will be always focussed. That's just the nature of your
eyes.
> But maybe they will invent something...hack the real things that are
> blurring are not blurred in real life to or are they ;)

> > Have you ever considered how best to simulate the effect of a roadway
> > rushing towards you at 200kph?
> > Of course you have.....after all, part of your task it to portray this
> > sensation in a manner that will give the player an effective sense of
the
> > speed at which a racing car travels.

> > However, have you ever considered what my son refers to as "blurring"?

> > He said to me last night "Dad", (he calls me that at times)
> "Dad........why
> > don't they BLUR the edges of the picture as it comes towards you?" He
> then
> > went on to explain this question (I obviously looked puzzled to him!) by
> > pointing out that when you are driving in a car, the scenery moves
towards
> > you at (what appears to be) increasing rapidity and the closer it gets
the
> > more blurred the periphery of the "picture" gets until the edges of the
> > road, the sh***y, posts, poles, etc. are simply a blur.

> > I tested this theory out today on the way to work and he is absolutely
> > correct.

> > But this doesn't happen in a sim. I fired up GPL tonight and, at speed
> down
> > Masta straight at Spa, those items on the edge of my vision (as seen
from
> > the viewpoint of the driver...not me sitting at my desk!) were as
clearly
> > defined as those items in the centre of the screen a kilometre away.
> > I tried it with ICR2, NASCAR3, SCGT...all the same: there is no blurring
> > effect a all.

> > It is therefore my opinion that one of the effects that a developer
could
> > look into would be to recreate this real-world factor.

> > Is this feasible? Can it be effectively simulated?
> > I would be curious to read educated comment.

> > --
> > Regards,
> > Bruce Kennewell,
> > Canberra, Australia.
> > ---------------------------

by **jbo..** » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

You mean something like this:

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Or this:

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Excellent idea! I'd love to see something like this implemented.
Seems to me like if they could do it in the software, rather than the
hardware, there would be less actual screen to render -- by rendering
the center "viewing area" only, and then "streaking" that to the
endges, there would be less to actually render, which seems like it
would increase frame rates dramatically. Alternately, rather than
using simple streaking, you could always render with less detail at the
periphery, and then streak or blur that. Either way, it sounds like a
frame rate increase could be obtainable.

Ideally, at slow speeds, the ENTIRE screen would be rendered, with NO
blurring effect. Then, as the speed increased, less and less of the
screen would be actually rendered, and more blurring would occur
towards the center of your vision at higher speeds. Of course, the
dashboard overlays for in-cockpit views and the gauges and such would
still have to be rendered with no blur, but they're overlays anyway, so
that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Wonder if anybody's working on this yet? Like I said, seems like it
could be done is software, without the need for a hardware dependency.
Hardware implementation would unload the CPU, but it shouldn't be
required to implement the effect, I wouldn't think.

-- JB

Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Before you buy.

by **Ken Moran** » Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:00:00

10 to 20 percent sure sounds high to me.

I believe the fovea is about the area of a pinhead on your retina.
Truely critical examination of an object (or, in most cases, a portion
of an object) can occur only if the image falls on that area. At normal
reading distances, the the image of a colon ":" fills this area. For
example, to study the quotation marks on either side, the viewer must
scan over to that location.

Regarding Bills comment about the blurring, the best explanation I ever
read was that the eye and brain connection equates to a camera with a
bout a 1/10 second shutter speed. The image of an object doesn't have
to be moving that fast across the retina before it appears blurred.

Check out the rotating blades of a fan or details of a rotating
automobile wheel. Slap yourself on the side of the head (temple works
good for me) and the eyes are momentarily knocked in one direction,
often causing the distinct image of the fan blades or wheel to come into
view for a small fraction of a second.

Reminds me of the need to pan the camera from to follow the moving
object you're photographing to keep the image from looking smeared.

> >Btw, from a medical student point of few,

> >The blurring effect is because of your eyes and not because of the speed.
> >Actually if yuor eyes where 100% perfect that blurring would not accure. And

> Exactly correct. There was a human anatomy series on the Discovery Channel
> in which the host (who is a Doctor) stated that only the center 10-20% of
> the image on your retina is optically in focus. That wonderful rendering
> engine in between your ears interpolates the rest.

> --
> | "Instead of letting the moon be the
> Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let
> Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our

rec.autos.simulators

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.

Simulating Speed.....A Note To Developers.