rec.autos.simulators

       I vented my frustration in a previous post on the so called
patch that PAPY is working on. Like most of you other supporters
(customers) of Sierra/Papy I would like an answer on what the status
is on that patch. But guess what..... I don't get ANY reponse from
PAPY on my quest for an answer.
                    Great guys like Eric  and others that have web
sites are doing Papy's work for free by their great utilities and
tips. But what support are they getting from Papy, - ZIP-.
           The only time Papy takes on the web is to bash someone for
violating their copywrites. For example Papy doesn't want any tracks
posted but does Papy post any tracks???? I don't think so!!!!
                We are the consumer- customer. If papy won't post new
tracks, let the Web sites post them. After all Papy can't lose cause
you can't run custom tracks without purchasing the sim anyway.
         And I own all the sims from Papy, there great..... but we
should demand and deserve more support!!!!!

Anyone else agree?

One last thing, there is NO WAY with all their testing Papy did not
know about the Atlanta pit bug and other quirks in the sim. I
understand Papy had to go to market but these problems should be
solved by now!!!
       And why put out a sim in Dec of 96  with 96 output on the
results screens that can't be altered???... to 97 . Are we supposed to
buy Nascar3 in Dec of 97?????    The sim was out of date in 3 weeks.
Now were supposed to run 1996 year in all of 97????

                                                      A Customer.....

One comment :  What often happens in software development is a bug will get
introduced while trying to fix other bugs.  This was probably the case with
the Atlanta pit bug you refer to.
/THansen

Yeah Right,

      So  (According to your statement ) the best thing to do is not
post any patch, cause it might cause another bug!!!!  
   There is a bug in my Atlanta pit bug fix though, but my pit crew
cleans it off my winshield everytime I pit.

Hello-----Papy---- care to tell the newsgroup When??? you plan to put
someone on this and will he or she keep us POSTED on that Patch????

The sim is based on the '96 season and that's why it has '96 on it.  The
patch will be here.  Wouldn't you rather have a patch that worked
instead of a patch that has to be patched to work correctly?

Cowen Wilson
--------------------
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/7137

Not true. I receive email nearly every week from someone at Papyrus
offering suggestions or advice. Obviously they can't take the time to email
everyone who posts on RAS, so they pass the information on to people who
are willing to pass it along to others.

Not true. Jim Sokoloff and Charlie Heath post here quite regularly,
offering advice to anyone who will listen. Yes, Ed and Adam have both made
it clear that copies of tracks posted on the web that contained licensed
materials are illegal. Under their licensing agreements, they have an
obligation to do that. They are simply upholding the bargain they made with
Tony George and others when they signed the license agreement.

So Papyrus should be giving away tracks, is that it?

I guarantee you that Papyrus would have absolutely no objections to someone
posting a truly original track. But I haven't seen a completely original
track, they are all just derivatives of licensed and copyrighted works, and
therefore, illegal.

Calm down - the patch IS coming.

There's a lot of things they didn't know about. There are some bugs that
the beta testers didn't run into until after the product shipped. All in
all, NASCAR 2 is pretty solid compared to the first release of NASCAR 1.

This is terrible - I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!! ;)

Dave Sparks
IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars/index.html
Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html
Hawaii Handle: davids

People have been on the patch for quite some time now. We've taken
input from rec.auto.sim, our own play-testing, private e-mail, and
however else we've gotten it...

No official announcement regarding the timing of the release of the
patch has been made, and I'm not going to make one now. All I can say
is that it's actively being worked on, that it will please 95% of the
people who can be pleased, and that it will be out as soon as we can
engineer, debug, test and release it. (And not one minute before.)

---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

THansen, correct for 10 points; you choose the next category.

This bug was introduced in the last week of development. (And no one
caught it, because engineering/development put it in too late for
testing/QA to possibly catch it. In fact, the first we heard of this
bug was from rec.auto.sim. And the fix is now "well known" and will be
fixed by our patch.

In the meantime, you can get the fix from a number of web sites.
Papyrus QA hasn't had a chance to OK any patches yet, so that's why
you don't find any on our web or ftp site.

---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

They seem to be really getting a huge ego at Papyrus.. quit talking
down to us...after all we are customers, and have paid good money for
a bug filled program.

Bruce Chandley

       Ken

That's a bit harsh! Jim Sokoloff (excuse if spelt incorrectly) has been
here quite regularly since the New Year. In fact, it was he who advised
that Papy were intending to produce a patch.  Get off their backs and let
them do it without undue pressure........which was placed on them initially
to get N2 out.

bk

God ,  Sombody might think David is on the PAPY payroll.

The only time I've heard from Jim Sokoloff is when he has a complaint
about a post. All I'm asking is Who is writing the patch and WHEN is
it going to be ready (approx.) and why doesn't Jim tell us?   Oh
I remember he's too busy writing the patch!!!!!

WAKE UP    and COMPARE the Utilities posted on all the Nascar2 Web
sites to PAPY's and tell me who has more support for us.

I never said papy should give us DATONA for free but PAPY does not own
the rights to it Sega does. Yet who does not want anybody to post any
tracks----PAPY. And who will not sell us the tracks-----PAPY. Get a
Clue!!!!!
 And Before you get all defensive ( too late!!) Nascar2 is my favorite
sim and you can give me my money back but your not getting my sim.
What I'm trying to say is Lets have a progress report with some real
answers. I can't be alone on this viewpoint. Or should I just Pit and
let the spotter tell me there's an accident in turn 4 - GO HI GO HI GO
HI...............

Don't forget, this is not an official Papyrus support news group. You should
also take your concerns and problems directly to Sierra to be sure that they
are heard by thier support staff. Of course, I'm sure you've already done
that.

As Jim has said, he is not here as an official Papyrus representitive. He's
hasn't been the official conduit for Papyrus announcements. He's here as
another Nascar Sim enthusiast who is able to provide some information that
others cannot. For official Nascar2 info, contact Sierra.

Papyrus builds the car, then somebody makes cool windshield wipers for it
and you complain that Papy should have made the wipers. I guess your gonna
be one of those guys that's lost to "ya can't please all the people all the
time".

If that's what you were trying to say then....That's all you had to say. I
can't speak for Papy but If this last paragraph was all that was in your
post, I'd be more receptive.

I'm not announcing the time of the patch, because that's not within my
role at Papyrus, I like my job a lot, want to keep it, and part of
keeping my job is playing by the rules. It's Adam's ball to talk about
specifics regarding N2, the patch and its release. It's Ed's ball to
talk about specifics with NRO/TEN. When I've asked Adam in the past to
make announcements on r.a.s. regarding the patch, he's done so. We
don't have any more information ready for public release at this time;
so he hasn't said anything recently...

If you are a statistics type, www.dejanews.com has the information to
prove or disprove the "only time Jim posts is to complain about a
post" assertion. (This particular post, you could probably put in the
"complain" column... :-) )

If that's the only way you're going to measure support is by utilities
posted on Web sites, then Papyrus is not supporting you at all
currently...

If you (or anyone) is able to create a completely original track, and
not a derived work, that person (or group) will own the copyright to
that material and will be free to do with it as they please, at their
own licensing risk, without any legal restricitions by Papyrus. So
far, all anyone has done is to modify our copyrighted and licensed
materials and repost them. Papyrus and our licensors have acted and
will continue to act aggressively to protect our intellectual property
and the value of those licenses.

I can sympathize with your frustration. Don't get me wrong. And I can
assure you that Charlie, John, Adam and I are all equally anxious to
get the patch done, through QA, and into the hands of our (adoring and
not so adoring) sim fans... Everyone is on the same page there...

---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

Why won't Papyrus sell you the tracks? Because they can't get the
licensing, or don't have it (yet). Why don't they want you to make your
own tracks? Because you'd be violating copyright laws? Remember the Pits?
They were trying to make a Daytona track, but had to stop because Daytona
(or their laywers) were threatening them. It's not as easy as you think.
And no, I'm not on Papyrus' payroll, either.