rec.autos.simulators

GPL 1.2 news item on VROC

Marty U'Re

GPL 1.2 news item on VROC

by Marty U'Re » Tue, 05 Oct 1999 04:00:00

You make my point Mark...the difference between the suits at Sierra who own
Papyrus and control the resourses, and the creative/technical people at Papy
who gave us GPL and are not permitted to release the fix for 1.1.

Marty


> Sorry to dispute you Marty but I own a few Sierra titles. (Mostly domestic,
> cooking and such.) GPL is, by far, the cream of the crop when it comes to
> technical support and customer relations. :-)

> --
> Mark Jeangerard
> www.soundchaserweb.com
> New Mexico USA



> > First I'd like to say how much I appreciate all that Alison has
> contributed
> > to the world of Grand Prix Legends. But I take strong exception to the
> > notion we should forgive those responsible for premature publication
> > (leaking?) of test versions of the fix. We should thank them for doing
> what
> > Sierra should have done long ago<snip>

Dave Henri

GPL 1.2 news item on VROC

by Dave Henri » Tue, 05 Oct 1999 04:00:00

  My previous point is that Papy didn't throw out Quick fixes even
BEFORE Sierra bought them up.  It just isn't in the Business model that
company follows.  Yes they found the problem quickly.  But...They have
something like 5 different versions to support and the testing can get
pretty nit-picky.  So while you may want to call in Scully and Mulder to
uncover the *** at Sierra, I just don't see it.
  Having said all that... :)  I will admit that Sierra hasn't allocated
funds to place patching GPL very high on Papy's priorities.  I believe
the 1.1 patch was done 'after hours' as all of Papy's resources were
focused on N3 and NL.  So in THAT respect you might be correct in saying
Sierra is holding up development of the patch but I'd still say Papy
just doesn't rush patch releases.  From Sierra's point of view, from a
business perspective...GPL must have been a grand failure.  Do you throw
good money after bad?  

> You make my point Mark...the difference between the suits at Sierra who own
> Papyrus and control the resourses, and the creative/technical people at Papy
> who gave us GPL and are not permitted to release the fix for 1.1.

> Marty


> > Sorry to dispute you Marty but I own a few Sierra titles. (Mostly domestic,
> > cooking and such.) GPL is, by far, the cream of the crop when it comes to
> > technical support and customer relations. :-)

> > --
> > Mark Jeangerard
> > www.soundchaserweb.com
> > New Mexico USA



> > > First I'd like to say how much I appreciate all that Alison has
> > contributed
> > > to the world of Grand Prix Legends. But I take strong exception to the
> > > notion we should forgive those responsible for premature publication
> > > (leaking?) of test versions of the fix. We should thank them for doing
> > what
> > > Sierra should have done long ago<snip>

Marty U'Re

GPL 1.2 news item on VROC

by Marty U'Re » Tue, 05 Oct 1999 04:00:00


>   My previous point is that Papy didn't throw out Quick fixes even
> BEFORE Sierra bought them up.  It just isn't in the Business model that
> company follows.  Yes they found the problem quickly.  But...They have
> something like 5 different versions to support and the testing can get
> pretty nit-picky.  So while you may want to call in Scully and Mulder to
> uncover the *** at Sierra, I just don't see it.
>   Having said all that... :)  I will admit that Sierra hasn't allocated
> funds to place patching GPL very high on Papy's priorities.  I believe
> the 1.1 patch was done 'after hours' as all of Papy's resources were
> focused on N3 and NL.  So in THAT respect you might be correct in saying
> Sierra is holding up development of the patch but I'd still say Papy
> just doesn't rush patch releases.  From Sierra's point of view, from a
> business perspective...GPL must have been a grand failure.  Do you throw
> good money after bad?

Yes you do, if...

you are interested in investing for the long term over quick profit,

or, you are interested in investing in your own technological advantage (GPL),
instead of warming over older inferior products and releasing and promoting them as
new (N3).

This is a classic debate of long term investment in quality vs short term profit in
mediocrity.

The reason I'm investing in my 'Scully & Mulder' argument is we as customers have
more influence on the behavior of business in a free market than we are often
willing to admit. It's pure democracy, totally trickle up rather than trickle down
economics. Users of software have an unlimited influence on standards of quality by
giving feedback like through this news group.

Marty


> > You make my point Mark...the difference between the suits at Sierra who own
> > Papyrus and control the resourses, and the creative/technical people at Papy
> > who gave us GPL and are not permitted to release the fix for 1.1.

> > Marty


> > > Sorry to dispute you Marty but I own a few Sierra titles. (Mostly domestic,
> > > cooking and such.) GPL is, by far, the cream of the crop when it comes to
> > > technical support and customer relations. :-)

> > > --
> > > Mark Jeangerard
> > > www.soundchaserweb.com
> > > New Mexico USA



> > > > First I'd like to say how much I appreciate all that Alison has
> > > contributed
> > > > to the world of Grand Prix Legends. But I take strong exception to the
> > > > notion we should forgive those responsible for premature publication
> > > > (leaking?) of test versions of the fix. We should thank them for doing
> > > what
> > > > Sierra should have done long ago<snip>

Jan Hoviu

GPL 1.2 news item on VROC

by Jan Hoviu » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00



> > As far as I know the beta team (incl Alison) were still testing as late as
> > two weeks ago.

> > How do you know that Sierra has deliberately delayed the release of the fix?

> I know because the major problem created by the 1.1 patch (slomo / new sync
> method) was known to have been fixed very soon after it's release. Yes, I've
> been leaked a couple of the fixes and the problem is not only fixed but online
> play is much improved over 1.0. GPL became practically unusable for many with
> 1.1.

> My point here is that there is no good excuse for Sierra not to release that fix
> as an unsupported beta, IF, they really wanted GPL customers to be happy with
> the product. They can dink around with the final official fix as long as they
> want to, fixing other relative minor bugs and adding whistles and bells.

And who would have been the first to start whining if ever there would have been an
unforseen problem with the patch's patch just because they didn't take enough time
to test it thoroughly? I think most people underestimate the effort it takes to get
a product (especially software) tested properly.  Creating software is one thing,
getting it solid is a total different story!
How much credibility would Sierra/Papyrus earn to release patch upon patch?
Why'd you think they use a Beta-testteam? I think that's the main reason we're
still very happy with GPl1!
Let's face it: If FF wouldn't have been that fantastic you could stil do with the
original. It almost hasn't got any bugs. Compare this to for example MGPRS2, in no
time they had released 6 patches!!!!!

Jan.

Joel Willstei

GPL 1.2 news item on VROC

by Joel Willstei » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00



> > As far as I know the beta team (incl Alison) were still testing as late
as
> > two weeks ago.

> > How do you know that Sierra has deliberately delayed the release of the
fix?

> I know because the major problem created by the 1.1 patch (slomo / new
sync
> method) was known to have been fixed very soon after it's release. Yes,
I've
> been leaked a couple of the fixes and the problem is not only fixed but
online
> play is much improved over 1.0. GPL became practically unusable for many
with
> 1.1.

> My point here is that there is no good excuse for Sierra not to release
that fix
> as an unsupported beta, IF, they really wanted GPL customers to be happy
with
> the product. They can dink around with the final official fix as long as
they
> want to, fixing other relative minor bugs and adding whistles and bells.

> Good software companies who really care about customer satisfaction don't
> hesitate to get temporary fixes out when the problem is as serious as this
one
> is.

> So why is Sierra doing this? I'm willing to give them the benefit of the
doubt
> that it isn't just stupidity...partly stupidity but not completely. My
guess is
> the truth of the matter lies with the effect on their sales of their major
cash
> cow, N3. I've heard N3 still isn't available in Europe.

> Marty

      I seem to remember reading several posts from Alison Hine and
others,that the GPL patches are being mostly done by Randy Cassidy on his
OWN time, not work time. This certainly would help to explain the rather
long develop and testing time.

      But the fact still remains that Randy and company continue to stand
behind and develop gpl.

Joel Willstein

Marty U'Re

GPL 1.2 news item on VROC

by Marty U'Re » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00




> > > As far as I know the beta team (incl Alison) were still testing as late as
> > > two weeks ago.

> > > How do you know that Sierra has deliberately delayed the release of the fix?

> > I know because the major problem created by the 1.1 patch (slomo / new sync
> > method) was known to have been fixed very soon after it's release. Yes, I've
> > been leaked a couple of the fixes and the problem is not only fixed but online
> > play is much improved over 1.0. GPL became practically unusable for many with
> > 1.1.

> > My point here is that there is no good excuse for Sierra not to release that fix
> > as an unsupported beta, IF, they really wanted GPL customers to be happy with
> > the product. They can dink around with the final official fix as long as they
> > want to, fixing other relative minor bugs and adding whistles and bells.

> And who would have been the first to start whining if ever there would have been an
> unforseen problem with the patch's patch just because they didn't take enough time
> to test it thoroughly? I think most people underestimate the effort it takes to get
> a product (especially software) tested properly.  Creating software is one thing,
> getting it solid is a total different story!
> How much credibility would Sierra/Papyrus earn to release patch upon patch?
> Why'd you think they use a Beta-testteam? I think that's the main reason we're
> still very happy with GPl1!
> Let's face it: If FF wouldn't have been that fantastic you could stil do with the
> original. It almost hasn't got any bugs. Compare this to for example MGPRS2, in no
> time they had released 6 patches!!!!!

> Jan.

And did MGPRS2 get better?

Marty

Marty U'Re

GPL 1.2 news item on VROC

by Marty U'Re » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00





> > > As far as I know the beta team (incl Alison) were still testing as late
> as
> > > two weeks ago.

> > > How do you know that Sierra has deliberately delayed the release of the
> fix?

> > I know because the major problem created by the 1.1 patch (slomo / new
> sync
> > method) was known to have been fixed very soon after it's release. Yes,
> I've
> > been leaked a couple of the fixes and the problem is not only fixed but
> online
> > play is much improved over 1.0. GPL became practically unusable for many
> with
> > 1.1.

> > My point here is that there is no good excuse for Sierra not to release
> that fix
> > as an unsupported beta, IF, they really wanted GPL customers to be happy
> with
> > the product. They can dink around with the final official fix as long as
> they
> > want to, fixing other relative minor bugs and adding whistles and bells.

> > Good software companies who really care about customer satisfaction don't
> > hesitate to get temporary fixes out when the problem is as serious as this
> one
> > is.

> > So why is Sierra doing this? I'm willing to give them the benefit of the
> doubt
> > that it isn't just stupidity...partly stupidity but not completely. My
> guess is
> > the truth of the matter lies with the effect on their sales of their major
> cash
> > cow, N3. I've heard N3 still isn't available in Europe.

> > Marty

>       I seem to remember reading several posts from Alison Hine and
> others,that the GPL patches are being mostly done by Randy Cassidy on his
> OWN time, not work time. This certainly would help to explain the rather
> long develop and testing time.

And why is that? Guess Sierra doesn't think GPL, the most advanced PC driving
sim ever created, deserves their precious company resources.

Agreed...they are gods.

> Joel Willstein


Marty
David Ript

GPL 1.2 news item on VROC

by David Ript » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00




>> As far as I know the beta team (incl Alison) were still testing as late as
>> two weeks ago.

>> How do you know that Sierra has deliberately delayed the release of the fix?

>I know because the major problem created by the 1.1 patch (slomo / new sync
>method) was known to have been fixed very soon after it's release. Yes, I've
>been leaked a couple of the fixes and the problem is not only fixed but online
>play is much improved over 1.0. GPL became practically unusable for many with
>1.1.

>My point here is that there is no good excuse for Sierra not to release that fix
>as an unsupported beta, IF, they really wanted GPL customers to be happy with
>the product. They can dink around with the final official fix as long as they
>want to, fixing other relative minor bugs and adding whistles and bells.

>Good software companies who really care about customer satisfaction don't
>hesitate to get temporary fixes out when the problem is as serious as this one
>is.

>So why is Sierra doing this? I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt
>that it isn't just stupidity...partly stupidity but not completely. My guess is
>the truth of the matter lies with the effect on their sales of their major cash
>cow, N3. I've heard N3 still isn't available in Europe.

Hanlon's Razor.  It's stupidity, not malice.

There are two schools of thought on patches.  The correct one, and the
overly cautious one.  The correct one knows about Linus's Law (Debugging
is Parallelizable), and tries to get the latest code out to as many
people as possible as soon as possible, clearly labeled as beta.  The
overly cautious one fears that the code may break something, and so holds
off releasing until several layers of internal and trusted testers have
blessed the code for a few weeks or months.

The problem is that it's easy for 20 people to miss a bug that would have
been caught within a few hours if 1000 people had a chance to test it, so
the overly cautious types end up with a buggier final product than if
they'd released early and often.  (It's only possible to devote a limited
number of programmer-months to supporting a program, and the more of that
time is wasted waiting for the bug reports, the less is spent fixing the
bugs.)  Note that the absolute worst bug in any released games, the
uninstaller bugs in Thief: the Dark Project and a couple of demos that
would wipe your whole disk if you installed to a non-default directory
off the root directory, weren't caught until after release.  Which shows
that the internal and closed beta testers not only can't catch all the
little bugs, but they don't even catch all the bankrupt-your-company bugs.

The guys at Papyrus are way too smart not to know this, but they answer
to the suits at Sierra, some of whom apparently have a bit too much of
a CYA attitude and a bit too little commitment to true quality.

--

spamgard(tm): To email me, put "geek" in your Subject line.

Jan Hoviu

GPL 1.2 news item on VROC

by Jan Hoviu » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00

On some points yes (mainly Game Service) on other points they didn't do
anything.
(Example: A lot of people complained about sound problems starting from patch
4 (i believe), they just claimed it was the soundcard, not the game, "solve it
yourself".)
That's what I meant: They solved one problem with a patch but due to probably
inaccurate testing they introduced another one.

I did follow the MGPRS2 scene before becoming ***ed to GPL and honestly
have the feeling the guys from Papy (esp. R.Cassidy) are much more involved
and serious in helping the race-sim community than in this case Ubisoft. Never
seen any feedback from them in this ng, did you?

Jan.

  J.H.Hovius.vcf
< 1K Download

rec.autos.simulators is a usenet newsgroup formed in December, 1993. As this group was always unmoderated there may be some spam or off topic articles included. Some links do point back to racesimcentral.net as we could not validate the original address. Please report any pages that you believe warrant deletion from this archive (include the link in your email). RaceSimCentral.net is in no way responsible and does not endorse any of the content herein.