rec.autos.simulators

public apology to the West brothers

GraDe

public apology to the West brothers

by GraDe » Thu, 24 May 2001 02:42:52

Yes, both have many followers world-wide,
Both are full of promises which we must believe through blind faith,
Both are taking their time to come :-)



> > Pardon my ignorance but what is the WSC that you speak of?

> It's the second coming of the Christ ;-)

> www.simracingnews.com
> www.simracingmag.com

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...
> -- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
> Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Kenneth Verbur

public apology to the West brothers

by Kenneth Verbur » Thu, 24 May 2001 02:52:25

That one isn't part of the 13 new screenshots :) It's from the same track as
the new screenshots; Brands Hatch.

--
Kenneth Verburg
Editor-in-chief High Gear
http://www.simracingnews.com

Thom j

public apology to the West brothers

by Thom j » Thu, 24 May 2001 04:33:27

I'll be first inline here too!! :-)

| Fran?ois Mnard wrote the following on the question "what is the WSC?"
| > It's the second coming of the Christ ;-)
|
| Fran?ois, you crack me up!
|
| Pops

Thom j

public apology to the West brothers

by Thom j » Thu, 24 May 2001 04:37:07

"O" My can we also say? Cinic... huh?

| Yes, both have many followers world-wide,
| Both are full of promises which we must believe through blind faith,
| Both are taking their time to come :-)

Ruud van Ga

public apology to the West brothers

by Ruud van Ga » Thu, 24 May 2001 04:58:14


>Well I'm still not buying it (the development of WSC that is, not the sim
>itself).

>We've been with the same screenshots for the last year or two.
>Maybe I'm being naieve but if these were real gameplay shots wouldn't it
>mean it's close to at least a basic demo?
>I'm not a game developer but if they are gameplay shots then the tracks seem
>completed, the cars do, apparently a physics model is in place as well as
>AI.

I've had screenshots as well since (almost day 1), but that says very
little about the underlying physics, the AI (which I don't even have)
or the availability of the track. The last one may still have license
issues.

It's not background work; it's foreground work. If you played GPL with
little boxes on a flat-shaded track, it would still feel great. But
look awful. The other way round is a bit easier; have great models,
render them with all your builtin options on, and the audience is more
easily convinced.
I too play a bit along with that game; having good graphics certainly
helps in drawing attention, but the majority of the work, I'd say even
90% if not more, is done in non-graphics sections.

Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25
Pencil art    : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/
Free car sim  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

Marty U'Re

public apology to the West brothers

by Marty U'Re » Thu, 24 May 2001 05:05:31

Well said and a welcome commentary on the business of sim development.

The West brothers are a breath of fresh air even without seeing the full
fruits of their labors. But there seems to be another component operating
here...the business climate they are working in.

I'm quite sure they are not the only talented sim developers who care
about the quality the end result and what the users have to say about it.
Software is developed in a business culture who's values are defined by
those of the owners of the capital that fuels it. While values in business
vary widely it should be obvious that customer satisfaction is all too
often just marketing hype. 'Suits', who know little of the product or the
customer, call the shots for corporate stockholders who know and care even
less. It's ALL about profit.

Now before the right wing hordes reach for the reply button to praise the
god of profit, let me say profit is not the problem. Profit is good.
Profit is the food that feeds the beast that is business. The problem is
with the beast. No, don't kill the beast...the beast is good too. But it
is a beast. I love analogies.  : )

Papyrus appears to be a good example of talented passionate people who
initially created the best stuff without a corporate yoke. Indy 500 was a
break through sim. But, as is all too common, they are no longer masters
of their own destiny. Sierra calls the shots. God knows if they will ever
let Papy do another open wheel sim, wallowing in the profits of the Nascar
market.

So let's enjoy watching the Wests create from passion and
integrity...while it lasts.

Marty


> One of my philosophies in life has been to speak my mind when I feel
> strongly about something but also to be prepared to admit that I am
> wrong if necessary. I spoke my mind about WSC a couple of days ago and
> I am here now to admit that I was wrong.

> I got a personal email from Chris West that was completely sincere and
> the tone was one of someone who was geniunely concerned about
> producing a quality product. This tells me many things. First of all,
> they are watching this forum and taking the response to WSC to heart.
> Second, they are willing to listen and provide feedback when
> necessary. That means that when the game is released we can expect
> more of the same. What more can you expect? This kind of attention to
> the end users is unheard of in the game market today and I applaud
> them for doing so. After all, we are the ones that are going to buy it
> or not and they realize that. I think that this shows that they are
> honest and sincere about what they are doing. This is obviously a
> labor of love for them (as others have mentioned) and they are not
> going to release it until they feel that it's just right. That tells
> me that they aren't in it for the quick buck -- they are in it for the
> love of sim racing. We need more developers around like the Wests.

> I think that my prior attitude was a product of the negativity here
> and other places regarding the game and I blindly jumped on the
> bandwagon. I had nothing to base my opinion on and I made a snap
> judgment without any facts to back it up. For this I sincerely
> apologize to the West brothers. I know what it is like to be working
> your ass off on a project and hear someone say "You mean you aren't
> finished yet? What the hell have you been doing???" and the reason you
> aren't finished is because you want it to be JUST RIGHT.

> I'll be first in line to buy WSC when it comes out if for no other
> reason than to say "thank you" to the Wests for their efforts.

> Todd Walker
> twalker at jam dot rr dot com
> http://twalker.d2g.com

Andrew

public apology to the West brothers

by Andrew » Thu, 24 May 2001 05:45:16


Capitalist swine!

Peter Ive

public apology to the West brothers

by Peter Ive » Thu, 24 May 2001 09:29:27



<snip>

In some ways it's great to hear that they are listening to the ***
element of sim racing such as ourselves, but in others it worries me a
little.  After the poor sales performance of GPL that catered directly
to the *** sim racer I am hoping that WSC doesn't end up going the
same way and, when it is finally released, turns out to be just too
difficult to get into unless you devote many, many hours to it.  As much
as I am looking forward to this title I am also hoping that it is
successful enough to encourage many add-ons, follow-ups, ugrades etc in
the future.  Does anyone know whether they are intending to allow those
not-so-skilled individuals (not myself of course :)) to want to rush out
and buy this title along with the rest of us?

<snip>
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -2.26

Racefan_da

public apology to the West brothers

by Racefan_da » Thu, 24 May 2001 12:50:40

One feature GPL could have used to make it easier & more fun for
"the-less-than-***" racer is a GHOST mode.
GPL is great game, but GPL-GHOST MODE would be the ultimate!
Hope WSC has this feature. Makes learning the tracks fun; also allows you to
see where you are faster & slower than other drivers. I used to play
Mario-Kart for SNES 10hrs a day on Ghost-mode alone!
Dave Henri

public apology to the West brothers

by Dave Henri » Thu, 24 May 2001 12:54:00


  WS CRANK?
dave henrie

Dave Henri

public apology to the West brothers

by Dave Henri » Thu, 24 May 2001 12:59:01

"Andrew S" > > is a beast. I love analogies.  : )
  Are you kidding me?  I had to get shots and pills to stop the scratching
and wheezing from all the analogies I had as a kid...
dh

Hamish Stron

public apology to the West brothers

by Hamish Stron » Thu, 24 May 2001 13:31:31

Gotta agree on this one - GPL has to be the most under-rated car
games^H^H^H^H^H simulations ever.

Hamish Strong


> On the contrary, I hope that it IS just like GPL as far as difficulty
> goes. Why? Because I want it to be as accurate as a computer sim can
> possibly be and if it's too easy then it ain't real, because real
> racing is DIFFICULT. I really REALLY hope they don't dumb it down in
> order to increase sales or cater to the lowest common denominator.

> Todd Walker
> twalker at jam dot rr dot com
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> On Wed, 23 May 2001 01:29:27 +0100, Peter Ives

> >In some ways it's great to hear that they are listening to the ***
> >element of sim racing such as ourselves, but in others it worries me a
> >little.  After the poor sales performance of GPL that catered directly
> >to the *** sim racer I am hoping that WSC doesn't end up going the
> >same way and, when it is finally released, turns out to be just too
> >difficult to get into unless you devote many, many hours to it.  As much
> >as I am looking forward to this title I am also hoping that it is
> >successful enough to encourage many add-ons, follow-ups, ugrades etc in
> >the future.  Does anyone know whether they are intending to allow those
> >not-so-skilled individuals (not myself of course :)) to want to rush out
> >and buy this title along with the rest of us?

Thom j

public apology to the West brothers

by Thom j » Thu, 24 May 2001 14:02:04

OMG this has too be the all time Winner! Dave H!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

|
| "Andrew S" > > is a beast. I love analogies.  : )
| >
|   Are you kidding me?  I had to get shots and pills to stop the scratching
| and wheezing from all the analogies I had as a kid...
| dh

Kevin Gavit

public apology to the West brothers

by Kevin Gavit » Thu, 24 May 2001 14:30:30




> > Quite, gives me some time to finish work on my GPLRank before starting
> > work on WSCrank from scratch!
>   WS CRANK?
> dave henrie

Friends don't let friends WS Crank.

KFG

Tim

public apology to the West brothers

by Tim » Thu, 24 May 2001 13:06:50

Anyone who wants to get a feel for the Wests' method, check out the
archived radio show they did a while back- 4 1/2 hours worth!
Long download, sound is poor,  but well worth it for a look into what
the project is about, in their own words. The tone taken by the
brothers is a model for careful consideration and open process.  They
are impressive.

http://www.sportplanet.com/hg/games/gameguides/



> Well said and a welcome commentary on the business of sim development.

> The West brothers are a breath of fresh air even without seeing the full
> fruits of their labors. But there seems to be another component operating
> here...the business climate they are working in.

> I'm quite sure they are not the only talented sim developers who care
> about the quality the end result and what the users have to say about it.
> Software is developed in a business culture who's values are defined by
> those of the owners of the capital that fuels it. While values in business
> vary widely it should be obvious that customer satisfaction is all too
> often just marketing hype. 'Suits', who know little of the product or the
> customer, call the shots for corporate stockholders who know and care even
> less. It's ALL about profit.

> Now before the right wing hordes reach for the reply button to praise the
> god of profit, let me say profit is not the problem. Profit is good.
> Profit is the food that feeds the beast that is business. The problem is
> with the beast. No, don't kill the beast...the beast is good too. But it
> is a beast. I love analogies.  : )

> Papyrus appears to be a good example of talented passionate people who
> initially created the best stuff without a corporate yoke. Indy 500 was a
> break through sim. But, as is all too common, they are no longer masters
> of their own destiny. Sierra calls the shots. God knows if they will ever
> let Papy do another open wheel sim, wallowing in the profits of the Nascar
> market.

> So let's enjoy watching the Wests create from passion and
> integrity...while it lasts.

> Marty


> > One of my philosophies in life has been to speak my mind when I feel
> > strongly about something but also to be prepared to admit that I am
> > wrong if necessary. I spoke my mind about WSC a couple of days ago and
> > I am here now to admit that I was wrong.

> > I got a personal email from Chris West that was completely sincere and
> > the tone was one of someone who was geniunely concerned about
> > producing a quality product. This tells me many things. First of all,
> > they are watching this forum and taking the response to WSC to heart.
> > Second, they are willing to listen and provide feedback when
> > necessary. That means that when the game is released we can expect
> > more of the same. What more can you expect? This kind of attention to
> > the end users is unheard of in the game market today and I applaud
> > them for doing so. After all, we are the ones that are going to buy it
> > or not and they realize that. I think that this shows that they are
> > honest and sincere about what they are doing. This is obviously a
> > labor of love for them (as others have mentioned) and they are not
> > going to release it until they feel that it's just right. That tells
> > me that they aren't in it for the quick buck -- they are in it for the
> > love of sim racing. We need more developers around like the Wests.

> > I think that my prior attitude was a product of the negativity here
> > and other places regarding the game and I blindly jumped on the
> > bandwagon. I had nothing to base my opinion on and I made a snap
> > judgment without any facts to back it up. For this I sincerely
> > apologize to the West brothers. I know what it is like to be working
> > your ass off on a project and hear someone say "You mean you aren't
> > finished yet? What the hell have you been doing???" and the reason you
> > aren't finished is because you want it to be JUST RIGHT.

> > I'll be first in line to buy WSC when it comes out if for no other
> > reason than to say "thank you" to the Wests for their efforts.

> > Todd Walker
> > twalker at jam dot rr dot com
> > http://twalker.d2g.com


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