rec.autos.simulators

I agree.

GPL is very good at giving an impression of a higher framerate than
it is actaully getting. I don't really notice the framerate on my
P233mmx with Pure3D except if I look at objects that are moving at
a high pixel rate - such as trees just before they disappear from
view, or the whole screen when i am cornering on turn 8, that's when
i notice how low my framerate really is - i'd say it's about 15fps.
But it does not FEEL like 15fps. I did a test last night - i turned
on Software rendering with full detail and was getting a whole 2fps
(woohoo! i hear you all yell in awe and admiration :) ) but even
though it was a slide show - like driving while blinking twice a
second (try it!) - the car was still responding instantly to my
inputs - just listen to the engine revving, dropping hte car in gear
and wheelspinning, etc, the car is still responding in realtime even
though the framerate is utterly atrocious. I could even still do
perfect wheelspinning drag starts where i hold the throttle at
around half rpm (full rpm wheelspins are slow to accelerate) just
like normal, even though I couldn't see jack shit, and would end up
pranging into things.
This realtime simulation, with the graphics being secondary and
unrelated to the simulation speed, gives the feeling of instant
responsiveness even when the framerate is not so fast, thus giving
the feeling of a much smoother framerate than in other games.
Of course, the slower framerate means that our quickest possible
reaction time is lessened because of the delay in seeing the current
situation of the car, so even though it feels fine, our control
of the car is not quite as good as what it could be. I suspect this
is why people who have upgraded their PCs on this newsgroup have
suddenly driven a whole lot faster while not quite knowing why. the
increasedcpu gives an increased framerate which people didn't
really notice because they didn't realise just how low their
fps was before they upgraded.

well, that was my Theory of the Day from yesterday:) had to get it
out somewhere... Of course it could be quite wrong:) but it sounds
impressive:)

Grant.

On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:09:37 +1200, Grant Reeve

I think I've noticed something else:  The sim seems to draw the track
first, the the objects if it has enough time...  Sometimes when you're
looking at the track you think you have flawless rock-solid >30 FPS
and when you look to the outside it looks not so good.  I noticed that
in ICR2 rendition too.  I looks like the program draws track and cars
first, and if it has enough cpu cycles left it draws everything else.
So when you're looking at the track and at other cars (that's what you
do 99% of the time when you're racing anyway) it looks like the game
is very smooth, much smoother than it really is.  Can anyone confirm
this or am I hallucinating?

A. Renault

Joe

On Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:09:00 -0700, "Marc J. Nelson"

What, you mean that this ISN'T a demo of the final version?  Oh my
god, what good is it?  I mean, really, releasing something just to get
positive feedback and work out some of the kinks?  ;-)

You mean that all of these posts I'm reading from people who think
they are experts on the '67 Lotus, let alone were alive in 1967 and
racing the F1 circuit are giving expert testimony for an Alpha
release?  Really!  Let's not even get into that linear/non-linear
debacle...

I'm sure something good will come out of all of this, but not only is
the technology roller coaster fun, so is reading all of the debates in
this newsgroup!  I hope that never stops!  Long live Alpha-release
demos (just like CPR)!!!  Oooooh...did I say that?

Smells like a successful retail release in the future, me thinks. :-)

Kyle Stevens

P.S.  Hi, Marc!  Long time no talkie!

<snip>
<snip>

Then cut bait <snip> and run...

<snip>

Kyle Stevens

Y'know Achim, sometimes I wonder myself! :-)  No, actually it can be
quite fun as long as you don't take the disagreements too seriously. I
enjoy the occasional good discussions, and like SPRTSIMS, have made
some good friends here.

The more common disagreements you have to laugh about and pour some
petrol onto the flames :-)

Cheers!
John

John,

Did you say this is "fun"?  Did you miss school the day they covered that
particular word from the dictionary?!! ;-)

Achim, I fully agree with you!

Mike.

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:12:59 GMT, "Michael E. Carver"

I've seen games play at 15-20 fps, and this doesn't feel like it.
GPL doesn't "chop-up" anywhere, no matter what I do.  I have seen to
stuttering or pauses, or any chopiness.  Thats why I thought it feels
like 30 fps+.

I wish they would throw frame rate counters on these things.  

If you are correct that it is currently running at around 15-20 fps
(half of what I said), even though the demo is not optimized  - I
think the final with full AI will be even slower than my guess.

Marc.
--------
To replay via e-mail, remove "spam." from the beginning
of my e-mail address (Tyring to avoid junk mail)

   Btw, I missed the definition of "fun" when I was at school because at
the time I was throwing my unwanted lunch sandwiches at the teacher. So
what did I miss?

Many of whom weren't even a gleam in their daddy's eye (I can't remember
where I got that quote...my apologies)!  ;)

What's good is that I feel GPL (and possibly NHRA) will either signal
a wakeup call to those who listen, or a death nell to those that don't.
Papyrus promised to "raise_the_bar" in technology by way of physics,
and although they got a few items backwards (alpha woes), GPL will no
doubt be a huge success (in as far as simmers go).  Raise the bar
indeed!...They launched it through the friggin' roof!

Yepper!  Can't wait!

Yes it has...How's your little (growing daily) girl doing?  =)

Cheers!

Marc

--

(please remove '_*_' when replying)

Sim Racing News - http://www.simnews.com
The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com

* No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:03:00 GMT, "Mike Laskey"

Cheers,
Richard

Hi Mike,

I have to agree with you and Achim ;-)

Cheers

Mark

To be courteous, I went back and re-read your message.  Economic
minded as it is, you neglect some very basic issues, such as to
provide a sim of the quality and caliber you want on a PC system of
say, three years ago, is not a possibility.  Remember, it's not just
graphics capabilities that have increased, but sheer processing power
to run the number of routines written around the laws of physics.  Now
is that a crime, or will companies like Papyrus/Sierra see diminishing
returns?  I don't think so.  As long as there are enough people with
the hardware to run the newest simulations (or with parents to buy for
them), then the sim software category will continue to grow.

In my line of work we see more high-powered computer systems being
bought for the home than ever before, and we're talking AGP for people
who don't even know what it is, let alone what Voodoo or Rendition or
Riva are.  Hard core simmers will always debate the merits of
authenticity and always yearn for the next upgrade to their PC if it
gets them those blessed frame rate increases.  And since the major
sales indicators show no signs of decreasing home computer sales in
the near future, the Papyrus' of the world have every right to expect
that their software will run on the majority of systems out there.

I know your a bit sensitive about getting "sarcastic" comments, but
with people taking the GPL Alpha Pre-Release so seriously, I have to
find some humor in the debate going on in r.a.s.  And I'm impressed
and jealous with your access to vintage racing machines (I've only got
the Palm Springs Vintage Auto Show to go to).  But since you're
"driven" (sorry) to comment on the economics and not the driving
model, I'll cut you some slack (like I have any say in the matter) and
apologize if I grouped you into the wrong GPL-Debate category.  

I hope you'll find the final release to your liking, and if not, you
can always cut loose and run (or return the software to your nearest
participating retailer).

Sincerely ,

Kyle