rec.autos.simulators

by **Byron John Forbe** » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 05:10:06

Good on ya. Saved me a lot of typing :)

> > I can't stand oval-track roundy-round racing, but N2003's physics model
is
> > far superior to GPL's for road racing, even in Cup cars (altho, granted,
the

> > I). At one point, having compared the two, back to back, she referred
to
> > GPL as feeling like racing "on wooden tires."

> Of course. Back in those days they raced on *** that probably was
> even harder than wood ;)

> >> The king is dead. Long live the king!

> Not quite :)

> I only partly agree with you here Steve; while NR2k3's physics and tyre
> models are undoubtedly more evolved, there's just one thing that it
> doesn't have: that evocative "feel" and the challenge that comes with
> racing those classic F1 cars.

> It's just more exiting than today's sports cars. I did race Papy's
> Nascar thingies and fun as they are, to me it doesn't quite give the
> same buzz as chasing Jim Clark's Lotus around the bends.

> GPL's cars are so razor-sharp, it's hard to find anything that compares
> - they go like jet fighters whereas Nascar-type cars feel like whales on
> wheels.

> The historical backgrounds and continuous flow of new and revived tracks
> also contrast nicely with today's rather bland racing environments. More
> romantic settings, you could say.

> The King may be old and outraced, but lives - and still is King!

> Regards, Rudy
> (GPLRank -21)

by **Byron John Forbe** » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 05:17:40

Yeah, getting ripped off by paying full price for the 12 month
addon/patch was really something to look forward too. Ever hear of FPS
Football Pro. Sierra single handedly screwed that entire series with the
same 12 month format.

by **jason moy** » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 08:04:57

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:55:37 GMT, "Steve Smith"

>I can't stand oval-track roundy-round racing, but N2003's physics model is
>far superior to GPL's for road racing, even in Cup cars (altho, granted, the
>Trans-Am mod is a lot more exciting).

So you're finally getting the Trans Am bug?

You should install TPTCC and hit Sierra sometime. A surprisingly high
ratio of familiar faces right now.

BTW, slightly off topic, have you been playing with crossweight on
road courses at all in n2003? I've been messing with wedge a bit, and
with using assymetrical springs and/or shocks indycar 2 style, but the
effort seems to be largely useless.

Jason

by **jason moy** » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 08:16:04

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:55:37 GMT, "Steve Smith"

>In addition to the much improved
>feel in N2003, the physics also models tire wear, which rewards more
>realistic driving techniques than GPL's arcade-y acceptance of
>tire-shredding maneuvers like the "stab save" (locking up all fours to kill
>a slide), which feeds into the pit-stop model, so you can really bring some
>strategy to bear on the outcome of online races.

While the stab save doesn't work as well in N2003 (then again, if
you're winning in gpl you aren't doing it anyway =), I find the
ability to create setups where the brakes refuse to lock in most
conditions is a little weird. At places like Moss or the fast right
hander after Andretti at Mosport, I find myself using 100% brake
travel and steering at the same time, which just doesn't feel right at
all.

The other thing that is starting to***me off about road racing in
n2003 is the number of tracks being released now with grip levels that
fall outside of the 0.95 to 1.05 boundaries that Papy listed in the
track.ini's that shipped with the game. This makes the "unlockable
brakes" even more ridiculous. As a type this I'm looking at the
track.ini for a track where odd car behavior is the norm (it's also
probably the most popular road course on Sierra right now) and see
that it has asphalt grip set to 1.09 and concrete at 1.15. What's
awesome is that the people who made the track left the comment in the
file that says "this should be between 0.9 and 1.05".

Jason

by **Larr** » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:17:59

Actually, SIERRA lost the rights. Thank you Sierra. Now Nascar has to live
with mediocrity for the next 6 years.

-Larry

> I'll believe it when I see it. Papy lost the rights the NASCAR sims to EA
> and if they were doing anything NCAR related we'd see something posted on
> their website by now.

> > http://www.m4driving.sm/content/nascar/news/1/9038.html

> > Better link

> > AD

> > > Here you go

http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://racingmag.gamesweb.c...

- Show quoted text -

> > > AD

> > > > Seems like in previous years something has already leaked out by
now.

> > > > > I wanna hear the rumor? This is the second time this week Ive
heard
> > > > > whispers about something new from Papy.

> > > > > > i think you spoke too soon ;)

> > > > > > AD

> > > > > >>I sure miss waiting on the next version of Nascar Racing from
> Papy,

by **Mitch_** » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:30:49

One thing to consider Larry. Papy didn't just squirt out NR2003. It
was an evolution from N1. Give the guys at ISI a chance, theyve gotten
real close with F1C and hopefully that translates well for future EA
Nascar sims. IIRC arent the ISI team doing the Nascar sims?

Mitch

> Actually, SIERRA lost the rights. Thank you Sierra. Now Nascar has to live
> with mediocrity for the next 6 years.

> -Larry

--
<<<--- Posted using Mozilla 5.0 for Linux x86 --->>>

by **jason moy** » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:42:49

>One thing to consider Larry. Papy didn't just squirt out NR2003. It
>was an evolution from N1. Give the guys at ISI a chance, theyve gotten
>real close with F1C and hopefully that translates well for future EA
>Nascar sims. IIRC arent the ISI team doing the Nascar sims?

F1C is pure, un***erated garbage.

The day ISI releases a sim where the tracks don't feel like they're
littered with potholes, the tire model functions in a reasonably
realistic manner, and multiplayer with 40 people works flawlessly,
I'll reconsider. At the moment, it's not even in my top 3 sim list,
and I suspect it will fall out of the top 5 when Richard Burns Rally
and GTR are released.

As it stands, I highly suspect GTR (not 2002, but the one that's
apparently due for release this year) will likely be the best sim ever
made with an ISI engine, and that's largely because the development
team that is putting it together is most definitely going to work hard
on fixing all 3 problems I mentioned above.

Jason

by **Damien Evan** » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:48:38

That's one of the grossest exaggerations I've ever read.

You're correct but you've blown things way out of proportion.

We all hope so.

I think everyone would agree that:

ISI engine (with annoyances fixed) > N2003 engine

by **alex** » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:16:33

Strangely, I find GPL cars behaving quite similar to RW road cars (not F1
bolids) on the gravel roads (all-season tyres) or on snowy/icy roads
(winter tyres). What feels similar is the way corners are taken. Turn-in
early putting the car in a bit of slide, at first the car slides, but then
it gets more grip and settle into the corner. Of course it may not be that
surprising, considering that the *** on a road car is probably much
closer to racing tyres of 67 than to modern slicks.

Alex.

by **Joachim Trens** » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:58:54

> The other thing that is starting to***me off about road racing in
> n2003 is the number of tracks being released now with grip levels that
> fall outside of the 0.95 to 1.05 boundaries that Papy listed in the
> track.ini's that shipped with the game. This makes the "unlockable
> brakes" even more ridiculous. As a type this I'm looking at the
> track.ini for a track where odd car behavior is the norm (it's also
> probably the most popular road course on Sierra right now) and see
> that it has asphalt grip set to 1.09 and concrete at 1.15. What's
> awesome is that the people who made the track left the comment in the
> file that says "this should be between 0.9 and 1.05".

It's not just the grip. These high grip values allow people to use
entirely wrong heat and wear parameters as well, as the high grip to an
extent makes up for the grip lost due to excessive heat and wear.

Some try to copy the pta style values Noonan's converter update
introduced, but they get it all wrong IMO, and I'm wondering whether
they don't know how they work, or they don't know TransAm tires seem to
wear according to the info TransAm has given (it's on the PWF forum
somewhere) and according to TransAm laptime charts.

Even PWF themselves get it entirely wrong in their latest RC IMHO. I'm
not happy at all with all these IMHO entirely unrealistic tire usage
profiles.

Achim

by **Steve Smit** » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:03:36

Not at all! The real secret, I believe, to N2003 setups--at least for the
Cup cars--is messing with the weights. The reason? Cup cars are overweight
and undertired, hence it pays huge dividends to get the weights spot on
(made more difficult, of course, by that damned RF tire temp bug). I
started out symmetrical and have not gotten further afield than Jacques
Villeneuve in his CART days. I had left the track bar length alone until I
tried the default setup that came w. the Nox (nitrous?) track, the best
default setup shipped thus far. The TB had stretched to 10 in., so now I'm
madly lengthening and shortening the TBs too! If you like, I'll send you a
roadie setup and you let me know what you think.

> On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:55:37 GMT, "Steve Smith"

> >I can't stand oval-track roundy-round racing, but N2003's physics model
is
> >far superior to GPL's for road racing, even in Cup cars (altho, granted,
the
> >Trans-Am mod is a lot more exciting).

> So you're finally getting the Trans Am bug?

> You should install TPTCC and hit Sierra sometime. A surprisingly high
> ratio of familiar faces right now.

> BTW, slightly off topic, have you been playing with crossweight on
> road courses at all in n2003? I've been messing with wedge a bit, and
> with using assymetrical springs and/or shocks indycar 2 style, but the
> effort seems to be largely useless.

> Jason

by **Steve Smit** » Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:08:57

Maybe you should check the pots on yer brake pedal. <VBG>

Agreed, unrealistic grip levels are self-defeating, but I have no trouble
locking the brakes almost anywhere. Again, it encourages realistic driving
techniques in longer online races, 'cuz those who consistently lock 'em up
have to pit for new *** allowing me to slip thru for another win.

> On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:55:37 GMT, "Steve Smith"

> >In addition to the much improved
> >feel in N2003, the physics also models tire wear, which rewards more
> >realistic driving techniques than GPL's arcade-y acceptance of
> >tire-shredding maneuvers like the "stab save" (locking up all fours to
kill
> >a slide), which feeds into the pit-stop model, so you can really bring
some
> >strategy to bear on the outcome of online races.

> While the stab save doesn't work as well in N2003 (then again, if
> you're winning in gpl you aren't doing it anyway =), I find the
> ability to create setups where the brakes refuse to lock in most
> conditions is a little weird. At places like Moss or the fast right
> hander after Andretti at Mosport, I find myself using 100% brake
> travel and steering at the same time, which just doesn't feel right at
> all.

> The other thing that is starting to***me off about road racing in
> n2003 is the number of tracks being released now with grip levels that
> fall outside of the 0.95 to 1.05 boundaries that Papy listed in the
> track.ini's that shipped with the game. This makes the "unlockable
> brakes" even more ridiculous. As a type this I'm looking at the
> track.ini for a track where odd car behavior is the norm (it's also
> probably the most popular road course on Sierra right now) and see
> that it has asphalt grip set to 1.09 and concrete at 1.15. What's
> awesome is that the people who made the track left the comment in the
> file that says "this should be between 0.9 and 1.05".

> Jason

by **jason moy** » Fri, 09 Jan 2004 03:14:23

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:08:57 GMT, "Steve Smith"

>Maybe you should check the pots on yer brake pedal. <VBG>

>Agreed, unrealistic grip levels are self-defeating, but I have no trouble
>locking the brakes almost anywhere.

I've determined it's the high grip being used for PTA. I ran a Glen
race in cup cars last night (I haven't been touching anything but
TPTCC for awhile) and went straight off at the inner loop because I
drove straight to the 300 sign and slammed the brakes down without
giving it a second thought.

I then went back and ran an unnamed track in TPTCC with my own grip
values (1.0 asphalt, 1.05 concrete) and not only did the car behave
more realistically (IMHO) I had to actually use some degree of skill
to trailbrake. And my laptimes were much closer to real trans am
times at that track (granted, I'm not convinced that Papy was
attempting to model a real car with that set of physics).

The sad thing is, a lot of the GPL folk I talk to on a daily basis
think n2003 is horrible because their only experience really is
driving pta physics on overly grippy tracks. And while I enjoy both
immensely and certainly consider n2003 to be a vastly superior
product, it's tough going from the finesse driving of GPL to the stab
and steer that works best in pta, even at the same tracks.

I think the solution for me may be to just drive trucks on the
roadies. =) Actually, I suspect I'm just going to start using 1.0 for
asphalt grip everywhere when racing offline and deal with the extra
grip online unless I'm hosting.

Jason

by **jason moy** » Fri, 09 Jan 2004 03:15:59

I've noticed most if not all Noonan tracks have really odd grip values
as well. They're not nearly to the extreme a track like mosport_pwf
goes to, but they're higher than the Papy recommendations.

Jason

by **jason moy** » Fri, 09 Jan 2004 03:19:13

On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:07:50 -0500, "MadDAWG"

>Someone should tell him he dosen't need the CRAPCAR name on it. Stock car
>racing 2004 would be just fine. Hell make it a Trans Am game that can be
>moded for stock cars.

*** stock car racing 2004. There are plenty of great licenses out
there that no one has touched in ages that they could use. Supercars,
CART, Trans Am, and, hell, even lower formula classes like F2000 and
F3000. There are dozens of classes of motorsport out there that don't
have licensed sims, and yet everyone has been pumping out NASCAR and
F1 for the last 5 years. I grew up with NASCAR/F1 so I don't have the
dislike of them that some people do, but the same old thing being
released year after year gets old.

Jason

rec.autos.simulators

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy

I sure miss Papy