dynamic elements on the edges.
> EL
> > First off this isn't a Papy bashing post. That company did more for
> > Simracing than any other period, and I for one do appreciate what
they've
> > done that has given me many many thousands of hours of enjoyment (all
the
> > way back to Indy 500 and every single title since).
> > That being said I wonder why or what prevented Papy from giving us a
more
> > accurate experience. As I sit and watch the Michigan race I clearly see
> > that Papy's efforts have a weakness that they NEVER over came. Each
> > successive title improved (or hid) the weakness but it has always been
> their
> > since N1. The BR tracks again seem to just "hide" the issue not
overcome
> > it.
> > My question (more for fun than anything) is what do you all think this
> > inherent weakness is and why do you think Papy was never able to solve
it?
> > Mitch
track grip varies depending on many things.
papyrus tracks have uniform grip, which creates ONE distinct 'best line'
around any track.
hardware speed and time to implement are the reasons for not having dynamic
track grip.
pez
> > Mitch
> Not really. Take Michigan, Rock, whatever. Real race, they can run the
> same as they do later in the race. iow, they're not waiting for a groove
to
> be laid down.
= no overtaking, just like the real thing!
pez
> --
> Mike Beauchamp
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/ - custom electro-theremins and stuff.
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/ - mike's personal site.
> > variable track grip. talent of drivers.
> > those are the 2 biggies, if you could *** up parts of the track, have
> > marbles form elsewhere, have track grip alter constantly then youd get
> more
> > 'lines' opening up.
> > my concern with GTR is that it will be harder to pass people due to the
> > variable track grip option theyre going to have. itll be just like in
real
> > life, impossible to pass in most places because it gets dirty offline.
> > pez
> > > First off this isn't a Papy bashing post. That company did more for
> > > Simracing than any other period, and I for one do appreciate what
> they've
> > > done that has given me many many thousands of hours of enjoyment (all
> the
> > > way back to Indy 500 and every single title since).
> > > That being said I wonder why or what prevented Papy from giving us a
> more
> > > accurate experience. As I sit and watch the Michigan race I clearly
see
> > > that Papy's efforts have a weakness that they NEVER over came. Each
> > > successive title improved (or hid) the weakness but it has always been
> > their
> > > since N1. The BR tracks again seem to just "hide" the issue not
> overcome
> > > it.
> > > My question (more for fun than anything) is what do you all think this
> > > inherent weakness is and why do you think Papy was never able to solve
> it?
> > > Mitch
>message
>Mitch_A
>>What's the point of putting in multiple lines when the only
>> driver using those lines is going to be you, whilst all the AI drivers
>> use the same line as each other.
>Online racing, no?
Correct for the intended application. However, in the context of oval
racing which was the original gist of this thread, if enough drivers were
using the high line and laid down some "virtual ***" and "swept" it free
of marbles, then you should be able to develop a viable high line under
dynamic grip. If enough drivers used it, it could even be conceivably
faster than the "ideal" line. But as in real life, it would be
unpredictable and would vary from race to race on a given track. Nice...
;-)
The BR tracks with the CTS physics (I prefer the 88 mod) are pretty
nice, altho it feels really odd if you run the low line and drift up
and suddenly the car snaps into place because of the extra grip. Or
you do a really hot qualifying lap without coming anywhere near the
apex of the corners (more of a problem at MichiganBR than say, CaliBR
or TheRock).
Jason
If you set the car up fairly loose for a long fuel run, it's a lot
faster and easier to run the high line until the tires start to come
in about 1/3 of the way in before attacking the low line. Without
dynamic grip you'll never get truly realistic lines, but you can run
multiple lines with some success if your setup can handle it. I'm
also pretty sure passing on the outside would be easier if each car
had did different performance characterstics. Jeff Gordon is someone
who tends to set his car up really loose while running the high line
early in fuel runs and he can power past people because he has the
power and the aero to do it. And then of course there's the
constantly changing grip on a real track as the surface temperature
changes, cars lay down ***, kick marbles out of the way, leave
debris/oil on the track, etc. If Papy modelled every detail that
affected the grip available on the surface of the track I think
multi-line racing would be easier to do. The BR tracks aren't
particularly realistic in the way grip is distributed across the track
surface but it's a decent compromise if you want multiple static
grooves.
Jason
> track grip varies depending on many things.
> papyrus tracks have uniform grip, which creates ONE distinct 'best line'
> around any track.
> hardware speed and time to implement are the reasons for not having
dynamic
> track grip.
> pez
> > Not reall
> > > You may be on to something Pez. A dynamic groove/grooves may have
been
> > the
> > > main contributor. The key is, we as drivers need to be able to
identify
> > the
> > > change and till this point we haven't had the level of detail needed
to
> > > identify the change. Very well could be hardware related then, no?
> > > Mitch
> > Not really. Take Michigan, Rock, whatever. Real race, they can run the
> > same as they do later in the race. iow, they're not waiting for a
groove
> to
> > be laid down.
> > Not really. Take Michigan, Rock, whatever. Real race, they can run the
> > same as they do later in the race. iow, they're not waiting for a
groove
> to
> > be laid down.
> > I don't think the team, Jasper Motorsports, had anything to hide from
> any
> > of the others.......they're a backmarkers backmarker, always have been.
> > Its safe to say, not many other teams are concerned with how good they
> > are.
> >I think more downforce would allow people to run the outside groove.
> >Downforce is proportional to speed squared, so the more you have, the
more
> >important it becomes to keep your speed up, thus making the outside line
> >preferable. Then increase the drag so that the increased downforce
doesn't
> >allow unrealistic speeds overall. That is essentially what Papy did from
> >NR2002 to NR2003, and it did improve things, but it appears they didn't
go
> >quite far enough. I know they were working with one of the teams but it
is
> >likely that team didn't want to show the other teams how good they
thought
> >they were, so they probably dumbed down the data they gave Papy.
> I dunno if it's downforce, but I've had the impression since N2003
> came out that there wasn't enough drag or grip.
> The BR tracks with the CTS physics (I prefer the 88 mod) are pretty
> nice, altho it feels really odd if you run the low line and drift up
> and suddenly the car snaps into place because of the extra grip. Or
> you do a really hot qualifying lap without coming anywhere near the
> apex of the corners (more of a problem at MichiganBR than say, CaliBR
> or TheRock).
> Jason
But since the cts mod is supposedly what the cup "mod" should be like,
give it a go.
> > If you set the car up fairly loose for a long fuel run, it's a lot
> > faster and easier to run the high line until the tires start to come
> > in about 1/3 of the way in before attacking the low line. Without
> > dynamic grip you'll never get truly realistic lines, but you can run
> > multiple lines with some success if your setup can handle it. I'm
> > also pretty sure passing on the outside would be easier if each car
> > had did different performance characterstics. Jeff Gordon is someone
> > who tends to set his car up really loose while running the high line
> > early in fuel runs and he can power past people because he has the
> > power and the aero to do it. And then of course there's the
> > constantly changing grip on a real track as the surface temperature
> > changes, cars lay down ***, kick marbles out of the way, leave
> > debris/oil on the track, etc. If Papy modelled every detail that
> > affected the grip available on the surface of the track I think
> > multi-line racing would be easier to do. The BR tracks aren't
> > particularly realistic in the way grip is distributed across the track
> > surface but it's a decent compromise if you want multiple static
> > grooves.
> > Jason