rec.autos.simulators

by **==--=** » Mon, 20 Feb 2006 04:51:09

How do you feel about "pay-to-play" with that sim?

I understand the plan for this 'group' (avoided expletives) is to setup this
sim to be a pay-to-play-online game.
Good or not......
I dispise the methods used by this 'group' (well known agressive tactics
and threats of lawsuits, etc.)
I dispise the concept of pay-to-play

But good luck with your decision - keep us updated on your experiences with
it.

==--==

>> You can take a look at them here:
>> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

>> Graphically, i'm rather unimpressed. The car models are bland, and the
>> grass textures are simply fake looking. I was hoping for next gen
>> graphics but got 2003 era ones instead.

>> When are we going to see photo realistic graphics? Most grass textures i
>> have seen so far look nothing like real grass. Even the asphalt looks
>> like a grey texture with random black dots.
> Ok, I just took a look at them and disagree. Some of those shots look
> pretty good IMHO. Let the games begin!!! oh and btw, I could care less
> about all the ***that's been going on with First Racing. If the games
> good, I'll buy it. Simple as that.

> Mike
> mls67

by **Larr** » Mon, 20 Feb 2006 15:27:09

Pay to Play has advantages. For one, it keeps _some_ of the riff-raff out.

There were many, including myself, that were devestated when NROS shut down.

All I can say is keep watching the web site.

-Larry

> How do you feel about "pay-to-play" with that sim?

> I understand the plan for this 'group' (avoided expletives) is to setup
> this sim to be a pay-to-play-online game.
> Good or not......
> I dispise the methods used by this 'group' (well known agressive tactics
> and threats of lawsuits, etc.)
> I dispise the concept of pay-to-play

> But good luck with your decision - keep us updated on your experiences
> with it.

> ==--==

>>> You can take a look at them here:
>>> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

>>> Graphically, i'm rather unimpressed. The car models are bland, and the
>>> grass textures are simply fake looking. I was hoping for next gen
>>> graphics but got 2003 era ones instead.

>>> When are we going to see photo realistic graphics? Most grass textures i
>>> have seen so far look nothing like real grass. Even the asphalt looks
>>> like a grey texture with random black dots.
>> Ok, I just took a look at them and disagree. Some of those shots look
>> pretty good IMHO. Let the games begin!!! oh and btw, I could care less
>> about all the ***that's been going on with First Racing. If the games
>> good, I'll buy it. Simple as that.

>> Mike
>> mls67

by **David G Fishe** » Tue, 21 Feb 2006 06:04:10

>> I cannot address this issue without bias, which may become clearer in
>> the coming months. But I think you all are getting wrapped up in the
>> fact
>> that this still 'looks' like a Papyrus sim. Why shouldn't it? They have
>> a
>> style that is unique and simply because they are graduating to a new
>> product, we somehow arrive at the conclusion that they should present
>> something that is totally different.

> I have to agree with you Dave here. I dpn't see what's the fuss all
> about. Graphics are pretty much up to the Papyrus standards, they probably
> still use those contracted Russians. I always liked the palette they
> used. Some say bland, I say natural. The artistic quality standards have
> always been up high at Papy. They might not be processor-pusher, but tend
> to follow an singular artistic direction (GPL, N3, NR2003, etc...). Why
> is that bad?

> Anyway, since when have we've been judging a Papyrus.. (errr) iRacing sim
> on its look?

Well they didn't get the physics right in GPL or N2003, so what do we do?
--
David G Fisher

by **David G Fishe** » Tue, 21 Feb 2006 06:07:12

>> Everyone is getting worked up about this sim. I can tell you right now it
>> is not going to sell.
>> It features Modifieds.

> It "features". Yep. And other stuff too. At least we have real cars,
> not a random generic sports/open-wheeler car like in rF.

Not true.

rFactor has Skip Barber trainers and F3 open wheelers. Soon it will contain
NASCAR cars. Unless virtual paint is what matters to you most (you can
download realistic skins in 30 seconds btw). Didn't you say in another post
that we shouldn't judge a sim by what it looks like?

--
David G Fisher

by **Steve Simpso** » Tue, 21 Feb 2006 07:56:25

The graphics and physics might not have been too flash in previous Papyrus
efforts but it's all the little things that they do so well. Certainly
better than anyone else.

by **ymenar** » Tue, 21 Feb 2006 08:48:41

>>> Everyone is getting worked up about this sim. I can tell you right now
>>> it is not going to sell.
>>> It features Modifieds.

>> It "features". Yep. And other stuff too. At least we have real cars,
>> not a random generic sports/open-wheeler car like in rF.

> rFactor has Skip Barber trainers and F3 open wheelers. Soon it will
> contain NASCAR cars.

That's illegal to start with. None of them have been consented by those
bodies. rF when you buy it, is completely generic and has no licensing.
Let's not start with tracks.

I wonder whom I'm going to trust in terms of honesty of physics when I'm
behind my wheel. A bunch of dedicated person doing this in their free time,
or David Kaemmer.. hmm cmon David.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **ymenar** » Tue, 21 Feb 2006 08:51:29

>> Anyway, since when have we've been judging a Papyrus.. (errr) iRacing sim
>> on its look?

> Well they didn't get the physics right in GPL or N2003, so what do we do?

Nobody will ever get the physics "right". You better start racing in
real-life if you want that. GTL hasn't. rF hasn't. It's all about whom is
the most trustworthily close to it. And at their respective release, GPL
and NR2003 were. So did Nascar Racing 1. All Papy sims. We've never
judged Papy sims by their graphics, they aren't FPS shooters pushing your
hardware to the max with advanced graphic features, never were, never will.
At the core of racing sims, is the physics.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **David G Fishe** » Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:22:06

>>>> Everyone is getting worked up about this sim. I can tell you right now
>>>> it is not going to sell.
>>>> It features Modifieds.

>>> It "features". Yep. And other stuff too. At least we have real cars,
>>> not a random generic sports/open-wheeler car like in rF.

>> rFactor has Skip Barber trainers and F3 open wheelers. Soon it will
>> contain NASCAR cars.

> That's illegal to start with. None of them have been consented by those
> bodies. rF when you buy it, is completely generic and has no licensing.
> Let's not start with tracks.

Don't care if they consent. The cars in rFactor are realistic. They don't
consent because ISI doesn't want to take money out of your pocket and put it
in someone else's who doesn't give a shit about you.***'em. I don't know
about you, but one sim developer paying money to a track or race
organization for a virtual paint job doesn't make the experience more
realistic. I'm at the point in my life where I detest commercials. I'm
constantly bombarded by them, and I do everything I can to avoid them
(remote never leaves my hands whever I watch TV---I hit a pre-set on the
radio the second a commercial comes on). I have no desire to take money out
of my bank account and give it to (via sim developer) NASCAR, Skip Barber,
or some track owner so I can have the privilege of seeing their partner's
adverti***ts. Love ISI's way of doing things.

As you know, five minutes after playing it, I didn't think he was even close
with GPL (got ripped for that here), and he admitted a few years later that
he himself stopped playing it because it was so off.

Earnhardt said the PWF trucks felt like the NASCAR cars, which means Papy
was way off on those too. There's a *big* difference between the cars and
the trucks in N2003. Not sure where all this trust comes from. He modeled
*two* types of cars over a period of five years, and how accurate were they?

He's certainly very good, but it's silly to put him above the guys at ISI.
To be honest, I doubt there will be any real difference in the physics
between the two. Multiplayer, graphics, and content are what will grab me.
rFactor has tremendous content both now and in the near future. iRacing will
have to match it, and I don't see how they are going to pay F1, F3, and
NASCAR (to name a few) enough money to do so.

--
David G Fisher

by **David G Fishe** » Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:25:28

>>> Anyway, since when have we've been judging a Papyrus.. (errr) iRacing
>>> sim on its look?

>> Well they didn't get the physics right in GPL or N2003, so what do we do?

> Nobody will ever get the physics "right". You better start racing in
> real-life if you want that. GTL hasn't. rF hasn't. It's all about whom
> is the most trustworthily close to it. And at their respective release,
> GPL and NR2003 were. So did Nascar Racing 1. All Papy sims. We've never
> judged Papy sims by their graphics, they aren't FPS shooters pushing your
> hardware to the max with advanced graphic features, never were, never
> will. At the core of racing sims, is the physics.

GPL was way off. Kaemmer admitted this a few years ago.

N2003, according to guys like Earnhardt (who should know) was way off. He
said the trucks (made by a mod team) were how his NASCAR car handled.
There's a very big difference bvetween the trucks and the cars in N2003.

--
David G Fisher

by **ymenar** » Tue, 21 Feb 2006 11:19:39

> GPL was way off. Kaemmer admitted this a few years ago.

Cmon David it was 1998. Do you remember the games back in 1998? It was the
reference, way ahead of every sim for the next couple of years. Some will
say half a decade it took before it was caught. Was it flawed? Yep. So
will the next sim released by any developpers. Well, the one-a-year
developpers who take the chance because nobody wants to do sims anymore.
GTL is flawed. So does rF. Again it's all about taking them in context of
their release.

Kaemmer couldn't have done anything more with GPL back then. There wasn't
anything he could had done to add realism at the expense of computer time.
Geeze people were running it with Pentium 100's!. It was there, time
existed and it past away.

Well, according to him it was also the closest thing (and still is). Again
was it flawed? Yep. If you want the real deal, do the real deal. What sim
does he still races on? Yep you know which one.

Physics is still the #1 thing in racing sims. Everything else comes second.
And Papyrus has always been at the top of everything physics-wise. All the
time, since Indy 500. They were all flawed, WE KNOW THAT DAVID.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **ymenar** » Tue, 21 Feb 2006 11:25:30

> Don't care if they consent. The cars in rFactor are realistic.

And you know this because... ? All I'm hearing is several tyre flaws, dodgy
physics and lots of questionable features when adapted for longer runs.

What they do is still borderline illegal. Nascar could easily sue everybody
here for such stuff. Or the Daytona International Speedway. etc...

Yeah... a decade after David stands up to everybody and finally shouts "I
WAS RIPPED OFF!". Ooookay.

Yet they were more advanced at the release than any other developper even
wished could create.

So where's the people racing it? Or else are you accepting the fact that
simracing is basically a thing of the past and nobody does it anymore except
a few *** freaks like us?

I wonder what makes you think that iRacing will be worse than rF in any
aspect.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Woodie8** » Tue, 21 Feb 2006 20:54:19

> GPL was way off. Kaemmer admitted this a few years ago.

Yeah, and Pong didn't model spin on the ball. Waaaaah! I want my
quarters back!

It was good enough for him to play it in his free time even though he
was being paid by the competition. Maybe if he had opened his yap
BEFORE it came out, he could have helped make it more accurate.

Don McCorkle

by **Steve Simpso** » Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:14:07

Well, it doesn't take a sim genious to realise that the N2003 physics are a
fair way short of other modern sims such as GTL, RBR etc. iRacing will
need to completely revamp the physics from N2003 if they wish to compete (at
least in terms of physics realism.) I think what others are trying to say
is that nothing appears to have changed in the graphics department so it's
unlikely that the physics will be a quantum leap either. I've got faith in
Kaemmer & Co though so I'm not ruling anything out but at this stage it
appears unlikely that I'll be whisked away from the sims I'm currently
enjoying.

by **ymenar** » Tue, 21 Feb 2006 22:02:11

>> I wonder what makes you think that iRacing will be worse than rF in any
>> aspect.

> Well, it doesn't take a sim genious to realise that the N2003 physics are
> a fair way short of other modern sims such as GTL, RBR etc.

And in what way do you think iRacing wouldn't be able to up that challenge?
Also, how far necessary is the need for a physics revamp, if not only to
patch the problematics that are in NR2003?

We're not talking about Geoff Crammond here, but the guys at iR. They've
done it in the past, a couple of times already.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:02:46

> Yeah... a decade after David stands up to everybody and finally shouts "I
> WAS RIPPED OFF!". Ooookay.

NEVER said I was ripped off. Just that I was right back in '98. Don't
understand how they didn't see the same thing. All they had to do was
imagine how those GPL cars would handle in the rain, which the real life
cars were able to do pretty well. If they watched some old video footage,
and then compared it to in game video, they should of seen the obvious lack
of grip.

In 2003, no they weren't. They were just wrong. Trucks and cup cars handle
much different.

Consoles are taking over, but where are your facts that no one is racing it?
The rFactor lobby doesn't prove anything. Actually, the numbers are steadily
growing there, and when the NASCAR mod(s) are copmpleted, all the n2003
drivers will switch over.

What makes you think it will be better??

Other than continued blind faith?

I actually think the graphics will be close, and the physics will be
virtually identical. The only thing I wonder about is if they will make a
big improvement in their net code. rFactor's is almost flawless for me.
Makes N2003's seem unplayable in comparision.

Just a reminder....were you one of those who said that ISI would never make
good net code? :-)

--
David G Fisher

rec.autos.simulators

first FIRST Racing screenshots

first FIRST Racing screenshots

first FIRST Racing screenshots

first FIRST Racing screenshots

first FIRST Racing screenshots

first FIRST Racing screenshots

first FIRST Racing screenshots

first FIRST Racing screenshots

first FIRST Racing screenshots

first FIRST Racing screenshots

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first FIRST Racing screenshots

first FIRST Racing screenshots