rec.autos.simulators

by **Archange** » Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:59:40

I get the fact that it is real and the severity depends on setup and yada
yada yada. My problem is that the ONE thing we need to compensate for it
that REAL CUP drivers has is the ability to re-center the steering wheel. Or
if it is there I haven't found it yet nor seen anyone speak of it.

Plus they have power steering to help fight against it too, and are not
pulling against a big fat bungie cord either.

by **ymenar** » Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:31:06

> I get the fact that it is real and the severity depends on setup and yada
> yada yada. My problem is that the ONE thing we need to compensate for it
> that REAL CUP drivers has is the ability to re-center the steering wheel.
Or
> if it is there I haven't found it yet nor seen anyone speak of it.

You can re-center the wheel under calibration.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how
hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

by **Archange** » Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:30:03

My point is that we should have a keypress function to re-center the wheel
on the fly. Something akin to centering the stick in a flight sim.

> > I get the fact that it is real and the severity depends on setup and
yada
> > yada yada. My problem is that the ONE thing we need to compensate for it
> > that REAL CUP drivers has is the ability to re-center the steering
wheel.
> Or
> > if it is there I haven't found it yet nor seen anyone speak of it.

> You can re-center the wheel under calibration.

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...
> -- http://www.ymenard.com/
> -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how
> hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

by **Don Rodrigue** » Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:49:43

Put the slider all the way to linear it took out all of the play and fixed
the pull problem

by **Wosc** » Tue, 13 Feb 2001 03:58:21

Do you think that the fact that Nascar drivers can recenter the wheel means
that they don't feel the force acting on the wheel?

JB

by **Larr** » Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:29:30

It would be easier, and far more accurate, if there was a Trim Tab, ala
Nascar Heat.

The pull isn't nearly as bad in the release version as it was in the Demo,
so it really doesn't bother me any more.

However, those not running FF wheels, and especially those that have real
stiff centering springs or bungies will definely have issues with this.

-Larry

> > I get the fact that it is real and the severity depends on setup and
yada
> > yada yada. My problem is that the ONE thing we need to compensate for it
> > that REAL CUP drivers has is the ability to re-center the steering
wheel.
> Or
> > if it is there I haven't found it yet nor seen anyone speak of it.

> You can re-center the wheel under calibration.

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...
> -- http://www.ymenard.com/
> -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how
> hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

by **Don Burnett** » Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:56:55

Larry,
I have the TSW2, which is what I would consider fairly stiff, and I really
like the pull to the left. Yes, it took a little getting used to, but before
long I couldn't imagine having to drive without it, especially in the turns.
It really helps the turn in of the car.
Fwiw, I use 60% linearity and typically set my wheel lock at a pretty high
value ( less response).
I would suggest folks new to N4, load up the fast setups, and give it a
chance before you decide you don't want the pull to the left.
--
Don Burnette

> It would be easier, and far more accurate, if there was a Trim Tab, ala
> Nascar Heat.

> The pull isn't nearly as bad in the release version as it was in the Demo,
> so it really doesn't bother me any more.

> However, those not running FF wheels, and especially those that have real
> stiff centering springs or bungies will definely have issues with this.

> -Larry

> > > I get the fact that it is real and the severity depends on setup and
> yada
> > > yada yada. My problem is that the ONE thing we need to compensate for
it
> > > that REAL CUP drivers has is the ability to re-center the steering
> wheel.
> > Or
> > > if it is there I haven't found it yet nor seen anyone speak of it.

> > You can re-center the wheel under calibration.

> > --
> > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > -- May the Downforce be with you...
> > -- http://www.ymenard.com/
> > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise
how
> > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

by **Archange** » Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:55:50

The whole point is THIS..........

when the damn wheel is straight.......the car SHOULD be going pretty much
STRAIGHT.......plain and simple....no if's and's or but's......period.

THAT is the way it is in real life. How many times have you seen a in-car
camera shot of a driver holding the wheel at 2 o' clock on a straightaway?
NONE

If people want the FULL effect of whatever the amount of pulling force is
then implement that into force feedback and let people get FF wheels.
BUT....even under force feedback to go in a straight damn line the damn
wheel should be straight.

Which brings me all the way back to my intial post in that there needs to be
a function to, in effect, equal what real drivers have in being able to
remove the steering wheel and replace it in such a way that STRAIGHT equals
STRAIGHT.

To do this should be simple to implement because it is done in many flight
sims to center your flight controller with a single keypress.

Which brings to mind another thing too. I can't believe we STILL don't have
the ability to fully remap keyboard keys to whatever we prefer to use. :(

> Larry,
> I have the TSW2, which is what I would consider fairly stiff, and I
really
> like the pull to the left. Yes, it took a little getting used to, but
before
> long I couldn't imagine having to drive without it, especially in the
turns.
> It really helps the turn in of the car.
> Fwiw, I use 60% linearity and typically set my wheel lock at a pretty high
> value ( less response).
> I would suggest folks new to N4, load up the fast setups, and give it a
> chance before you decide you don't want the pull to the left.
> --
> Don Burnette

> > It would be easier, and far more accurate, if there was a Trim Tab, ala
> > Nascar Heat.

> > The pull isn't nearly as bad in the release version as it was in the
Demo,
> > so it really doesn't bother me any more.

> > However, those not running FF wheels, and especially those that have
real
> > stiff centering springs or bungies will definely have issues with this.

> > -Larry

> > > > I get the fact that it is real and the severity depends on setup and
> > yada
> > > > yada yada. My problem is that the ONE thing we need to compensate
for
> it
> > > > that REAL CUP drivers has is the ability to re-center the steering
> > wheel.
> > > Or
> > > > if it is there I haven't found it yet nor seen anyone speak of it.

> > > You can re-center the wheel under calibration.

> > > --
> > > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > > -- May the Downforce be with you...
> > > -- http://www.ymenard.com/
> > > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise
> how
> > > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

by **Wosc** » Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:49:33

If you could make it straight, it would completely eliminate the effect and
make it a non-issue. If you read Little E's insights on N4, you would see
that he thinks the pull is very realistic and it is something he deals with
all the time. Sure they reposition the wheel, BUT that doesn't mean the
force is gone...if the sim could reposition the wheel, the force would be
gone and then the realism would be gone.

JB

> The whole point is THIS..........

> when the damn wheel is straight.......the car SHOULD be going pretty much
> STRAIGHT.......plain and simple....no if's and's or but's......period.

> THAT is the way it is in real life. How many times have you seen a in-car
> camera shot of a driver holding the wheel at 2 o' clock on a straightaway?
> NONE

> If people want the FULL effect of whatever the amount of pulling force is
> then implement that into force feedback and let people get FF wheels.
> BUT....even under force feedback to go in a straight damn line the damn
> wheel should be straight.

> Which brings me all the way back to my intial post in that there needs to
be
> a function to, in effect, equal what real drivers have in being able to
> remove the steering wheel and replace it in such a way that STRAIGHT
equals
> STRAIGHT.

> To do this should be simple to implement because it is done in many flight
> sims to center your flight controller with a single keypress.

> Which brings to mind another thing too. I can't believe we STILL don't
have
> the ability to fully remap keyboard keys to whatever we prefer to use. :(

> > Larry,
> > I have the TSW2, which is what I would consider fairly stiff, and I
> really
> > like the pull to the left. Yes, it took a little getting used to, but
> before
> > long I couldn't imagine having to drive without it, especially in the
> turns.
> > It really helps the turn in of the car.
> > Fwiw, I use 60% linearity and typically set my wheel lock at a pretty
high
> > value ( less response).
> > I would suggest folks new to N4, load up the fast setups, and give it a
> > chance before you decide you don't want the pull to the left.
> > --
> > Don Burnette

> > > It would be easier, and far more accurate, if there was a Trim Tab,
ala
> > > Nascar Heat.

> > > The pull isn't nearly as bad in the release version as it was in the
> Demo,
> > > so it really doesn't bother me any more.

> > > However, those not running FF wheels, and especially those that have
> real
> > > stiff centering springs or bungies will definely have issues with
this.

> > > -Larry

> > > > > I get the fact that it is real and the severity depends on setup
and
> > > yada
> > > > > yada yada. My problem is that the ONE thing we need to compensate
> for
> > it
> > > > > that REAL CUP drivers has is the ability to re-center the steering
> > > wheel.
> > > > Or
> > > > > if it is there I haven't found it yet nor seen anyone speak of it.

> > > > You can re-center the wheel under calibration.

> > > > --
> > > > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > > > -- May the Downforce be with you...
> > > > -- http://www.ymenard.com/
> > > > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't
realise
> > how
> > > > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

by **Race15** » Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:03:04

I have gotten used to the pull-left syndrome because I have to, but I
understand where many are coming from and, in fact, agree with most.
I enjoy setting up the car, working on my lines and being the best driver
"I" can be, which, if the truth be told, "ain't so hot!" <g>
But the main reason I run racing sims is - I LIKE TO RACE!
Online I want the realism of setups, tracks, weather, pitstops, wear and
tear on the car - but what I want the most is - TO RACE AND RACE CLEAN!
And this is where the annoyance of the left-pull comes in. Driving in
traffic inches apart is hard enoough without a real rear-view mirror and no
left-right look with periphial vision that doesnt make my head spin. Having to
concentrate so *** the left pull takes away from my enjoyement of racing
close, which is the exact reason I love to race the NASCAR sims.
For those of you who will no doubt want to jump in on the "it must be real"
bandwagon, please save your breath. My Father, Uncles and even my Mother raced
stock cars in the fifties and sixties, while my Brother and I took to the
dragstrip in the 70s. I "know" what its like "for real."
But I am not at the track, I am in my little 10 x10 foot room, dressed in
shorts, t-shirt and slippers, trying to keep the sound level down so I don't
disturb the whole house, the TV beside me is tuned to speedvision, the phone is
ringing next to me and the dog is barking because someone is banging on the
door trying to sell Girlscout cookies - and now I can hear my wife yelling at
me to "Please stop the toilet from running on after flushing."
Please, I just want to go in a straight line and race. I have enough
"realism" right here. <BIG GRIN>

Mike

by **skeet** » Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:05:53

I still agree with ole Arch' on this one. You never see the wheel
turned to the right as the drivers go down the straights when viewed
from the in car camera. That's the "problem".

Thanks,

Skeeter

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice and
moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."
- Barry Goldwater

by **Stephen Smit** » Wed, 14 Feb 2001 05:07:13

Wosco,

Well, there's the solution, innit? If the wheel's straight, the car goes
straight, just like it should. You want the damn thing to pull to the left?
Get FF and it will want to go left...UNLESS...you already have a FF wheel
and don't like the annoyance, in which case, disable FF. There--everybody's
happy (except the non-FF left-pull lovers who'll have to go out and buy some
new h/w).

P.S. I'm glad the effect was toned down from the demo. The last time I
drove a car that handled like that, it had a bent tie-rod.

--Steve

> If you could make it straight, it would completely eliminate the effect
and
> make it a non-issue. If you read Little E's insights on N4, you would see
> that he thinks the pull is very realistic and it is something he deals
with
> all the time. Sure they reposition the wheel, BUT that doesn't mean the
> force is gone...if the sim could reposition the wheel, the force would be
> gone and then the realism would be gone.

> JB

> > The whole point is THIS..........

> > when the damn wheel is straight.......the car SHOULD be going pretty
much
> > STRAIGHT.......plain and simple....no if's and's or but's......period.

> > THAT is the way it is in real life. How many times have you seen a
in-car
> > camera shot of a driver holding the wheel at 2 o' clock on a
straightaway?
> > NONE

> > If people want the FULL effect of whatever the amount of pulling force
is
> > then implement that into force feedback and let people get FF wheels.
> > BUT....even under force feedback to go in a straight damn line the damn
> > wheel should be straight.

> > Which brings me all the way back to my intial post in that there needs
to
> be
> > a function to, in effect, equal what real drivers have in being able to
> > remove the steering wheel and replace it in such a way that STRAIGHT
> equals
> > STRAIGHT.

> > To do this should be simple to implement because it is done in many
flight
> > sims to center your flight controller with a single keypress.

> > Which brings to mind another thing too. I can't believe we STILL don't
> have
> > the ability to fully remap keyboard keys to whatever we prefer to use.
:(

> > > Larry,
> > > I have the TSW2, which is what I would consider fairly stiff, and I
> > really
> > > like the pull to the left. Yes, it took a little getting used to, but
> > before
> > > long I couldn't imagine having to drive without it, especially in the
> > turns.
> > > It really helps the turn in of the car.
> > > Fwiw, I use 60% linearity and typically set my wheel lock at a pretty
> high
> > > value ( less response).
> > > I would suggest folks new to N4, load up the fast setups, and give it
a
> > > chance before you decide you don't want the pull to the left.
> > > --
> > > Don Burnette

> > > > It would be easier, and far more accurate, if there was a Trim Tab,
> ala
> > > > Nascar Heat.

> > > > The pull isn't nearly as bad in the release version as it was in the
> > Demo,
> > > > so it really doesn't bother me any more.

> > > > However, those not running FF wheels, and especially those that have
> > real
> > > > stiff centering springs or bungies will definely have issues with
> this.

> > > > -Larry

> > > > > > I get the fact that it is real and the severity depends on setup
> and
> > > > yada
> > > > > > yada yada. My problem is that the ONE thing we need to
compensate
> > for
> > > it
> > > > > > that REAL CUP drivers has is the ability to re-center the
steering
> > > > wheel.
> > > > > Or
> > > > > > if it is there I haven't found it yet nor seen anyone speak of
it.

> > > > > You can re-center the wheel under calibration.

> > > > > --
> > > > > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > > > > -- May the Downforce be with you...
> > > > > -- http://www.ymenard.com/
> > > > > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't
> realise
> > > how
> > > > > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

by **Cliff Roma** » Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:33:08

I don't think it was toned down, I just think that the setups that game with
the game are setup better than the default setup that came with the Demo.

> Wosco,

> Well, there's the solution, innit? If the wheel's straight, the car goes
> straight, just like it should. You want the damn thing to pull to the
left?
> Get FF and it will want to go left...UNLESS...you already have a FF wheel
> and don't like the annoyance, in which case, disable FF.
There--everybody's
> happy (except the non-FF left-pull lovers who'll have to go out and buy
some
> new h/w).

> P.S. I'm glad the effect was toned down from the demo. The last time I
> drove a car that handled like that, it had a bent tie-rod.

> --Steve

> > If you could make it straight, it would completely eliminate the effect
> and
> > make it a non-issue. If you read Little E's insights on N4, you would
see
> > that he thinks the pull is very realistic and it is something he deals
> with
> > all the time. Sure they reposition the wheel, BUT that doesn't mean the
> > force is gone...if the sim could reposition the wheel, the force would
be
> > gone and then the realism would be gone.

> > JB

> > > The whole point is THIS..........

> > > when the damn wheel is straight.......the car SHOULD be going pretty
> much
> > > STRAIGHT.......plain and simple....no if's and's or but's......period.

> > > THAT is the way it is in real life. How many times have you seen a
> in-car
> > > camera shot of a driver holding the wheel at 2 o' clock on a
> straightaway?
> > > NONE

> > > If people want the FULL effect of whatever the amount of pulling force
> is
> > > then implement that into force feedback and let people get FF wheels.
> > > BUT....even under force feedback to go in a straight damn line the
damn
> > > wheel should be straight.

> > > Which brings me all the way back to my intial post in that there needs
> to
> > be
> > > a function to, in effect, equal what real drivers have in being able
to
> > > remove the steering wheel and replace it in such a way that STRAIGHT
> > equals
> > > STRAIGHT.

> > > To do this should be simple to implement because it is done in many
> flight
> > > sims to center your flight controller with a single keypress.

> > > Which brings to mind another thing too. I can't believe we STILL don't
> > have
> > > the ability to fully remap keyboard keys to whatever we prefer to use.
> :(

> > > > Larry,
> > > > I have the TSW2, which is what I would consider fairly stiff, and I
> > > really
> > > > like the pull to the left. Yes, it took a little getting used to,
but
> > > before
> > > > long I couldn't imagine having to drive without it, especially in
the
> > > turns.
> > > > It really helps the turn in of the car.
> > > > Fwiw, I use 60% linearity and typically set my wheel lock at a
pretty
> > high
> > > > value ( less response).
> > > > I would suggest folks new to N4, load up the fast setups, and give
it
> a
> > > > chance before you decide you don't want the pull to the left.
> > > > --
> > > > Don Burnette

> > > > > It would be easier, and far more accurate, if there was a Trim
Tab,
> > ala
> > > > > Nascar Heat.

> > > > > The pull isn't nearly as bad in the release version as it was in
the
> > > Demo,
> > > > > so it really doesn't bother me any more.

> > > > > However, those not running FF wheels, and especially those that
have
> > > real
> > > > > stiff centering springs or bungies will definely have issues with
> > this.

> > > > > -Larry

> > > > > > > I get the fact that it is real and the severity depends on
setup
> > and
> > > > > yada
> > > > > > > yada yada. My problem is that the ONE thing we need to
> compensate
> > > for
> > > > it
> > > > > > > that REAL CUP drivers has is the ability to re-center the
> steering
> > > > > wheel.
> > > > > > Or
> > > > > > > if it is there I haven't found it yet nor seen anyone speak of
> it.

> > > > > > You can re-center the wheel under calibration.

> > > > > > --
> > > > > > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > > > > > -- May the Downforce be with you...
> > > > > > -- http://www.ymenard.com/
> > > > > > -- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't
> > realise
> > > > how
> > > > > > hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

by **Larr** » Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:40:58

I did some testing last night...

If you are using FF, you don't notice it because you don't have the
centering spring fightening you all the time.

However, turn off FF, or use a non-FF wheel with a centering spring, and
MAN, is it irritating!

Those without FF wheels have ligitimate gripe IMHO.

-Larry

by **Stephen Smit** » Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:48:24