Gregg --
Right F*****' On, my man. I think you managed to drag out the answer
those of us who were dissatisfied with an incomplete product were
looking for: Sierra/Papyrus' position is Love It Or Leave It, and with
THAT attitude, I'll definitely leave it. I wonder if they'd actually
take back an opened game?
Translation for Tommy and his thumbsucking cohorts:
Nyah-Nyah-Nyah-Nyah-Nyah!!
Was right! Was NOT!! Was right! Was NOT!! Was right! Was NOT!! Was
right! Was NOT!!
> <snip-a-dip>
> > Of course not - the message is not that Papyrus should have
> somehow
> > predicted and allowed for this eventuality, but that they should
> have
> > created their software such that it runs on something other than
> Intel
> > products.
> > <snip-o-rama>
> > --
> > Cheers!
> > John (SRN-Europe)
> John -- Praise de lawd! That's what *I* was trying to say -- I guess
> I
> used too many words.
> If it says on the box that the game will run on an IBM PC or
> COMPATIBLE,
> then it should be tested on COMMON (Cyrix, AMD, etc.) COMPATIBLE
> SYSTEMS
> with COMMON (Intense,Screamin' 3D, Matrox, Creative, Hercules, ATI,
> Orchid, etc.) GRAPHICS CARDS. What, in the name of good commerce, is
> the
> big difficulty with that? Is Sierra too cheap to buy their adopted
> child
> some different systems to test their products on? I would think it a
> false economy to give short-shrift to product testing when the
> result is
> a large number of users who are frustrated with each release and
> patch
> of a game they paid good money for, thinking IT WOULD WORK AS
> ADVERTISED.
> No one in the business software field (except Microsoft) expects
> their
> paying customers to also act as beta testers -- businesses don't
> have
> the time or resources to nurse software through infancy. Time is
> money,
> and, generally speaking, if business software doesn't work as
> advertised
> out of the box, it's history.
> Many "entertainment" software companies, however, know their
> impulse-driven customers will buy just about anything on the
> strength of
> a cool screenshot and some ad hype. When Johnny Dude gets his copy
> of
> "Zoomin' 3D Turds" and it's screwed, he weeps and wails and waits
> for
> patches that may or may not solve the problem. But as soon as the
> Next
> Big Thing is released, with AWESOME! fold-out spreads in Game
> Droolers'
> World, he blades on down to the mall and lays his lunch money on the
> counter, just to repeat the scenario.
> All I've been asking for is a little responsibility from the
> "entertainment" software companies -- treat your customers like they
> were customers, not just disembodied bottomless wallets.
> 'nough said?
> Bart Brown
>>><snip-a-dip>
>>>> Of course not - the message is not that Papyrus should have somehow
>>>> predicted and allowed for this eventuality, but that they should have
>>>> created their software such that it runs on something other than Intel
>>>> products.
>>>> <snip-o-rama>
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers!
>>>> John (SRN-Europe)
>>>John -- Praise de lawd! That's what *I* was trying to say -- I guess I
>>>used too many words.
>>>If it says on the box that the game will run on an IBM PC or COMPATIBLE,
>>>then it should be tested on COMMON (Cyrix, AMD, etc.) COMPATIBLE SYSTEMS
>>>with COMMON (Intense,Screamin' 3D, Matrox, Creative, Hercules, ATI,
>>>Orchid, etc.) GRAPHICS CARDS. What, in the name of good commerce, is the
>>>big difficulty with that? Is Sierra too cheap to buy their adopted child
>>>some different systems to test their products on? I would think it a
>>>false economy to give short-shrift to product testing when the result is
>>>a large number of users who are frustrated with each release and patch
>>>of a game they paid good money for, thinking IT WOULD WORK AS
>>>ADVERTISED.
>>>No one in the business software field (except Microsoft) expects their
>>>paying customers to also act as beta testers -- businesses don't have
>>>the time or resources to nurse software through infancy. Time is money,
>>>and, generally speaking, if business software doesn't work as advertised
>>>out of the box, it's history.
>>>Many "entertainment" software companies, however, know their
>>>impulse-driven customers will buy just about anything on the strength of
>>>a cool screenshot and some ad hype. When Johnny Dude gets his copy of
>>>"Zoomin' 3D Turds" and it's screwed, he weeps and wails and waits for
>>>patches that may or may not solve the problem. But as soon as the Next
>>>Big Thing is released, with AWESOME! fold-out spreads in Game Droolers'
>>>World, he blades on down to the mall and lays his lunch money on the
>>>counter, just to repeat the scenario.
>>>All I've been asking for is a little responsibility from the
>>>"entertainment" software companies -- treat your customers like they
>>>were customers, not just disembodied bottomless wallets.
>>>'nough said?
>>>Bart Brown
>> You only pay 50 dollars for the game. What do you expect
>Tommy $50 is probably about ten weeks of your allowance !
Maybe you might have saved back a few allowances but there's still one
thing you lack a set of balls!! Pick a side and stay there!
I have made the way I feel very clear and will not backtrack it.
You however jump the fence alot to stick yourself in the middle of
controversy (on the popular side of course.) Matt Marsala did finally
E-mail me back on the matter.
Basically he confirmed my suspicions (except for the NRO thing ) but
he did basically say that the fix was beyond a patch. He also went on
to say that If I wasn't happy with the product I should take it back
or sell it and hopefully I would like the next line of products.
ah what the hell heres the email read it and judge it for yourself
Thanks for your comments Gregg. I understand that you are angry that
N2 is not
Matt I would like to thank you for replying. I can see now that
voicing our opinion was useless because there's not going to be a fix
unless it comes out in another product. I will not take it back or
sell it but instead chalk it up to experience. I probably will never
get a fix because I personally don't intend to purchase another
Sierra/Papyrus product (which I know will break the company right)
but its like I said before had I wanted an arcade type game I would
have bought Daytona U.S.A (it does work like they claim.) To the
original Nascar Racing design team I say excellent job you really came
through with support to fix the bugs in Nascar1. This will be my last
post on this matter. So with that I would like to say to you people
that really flamed the hell out of us on this matter (and you know who
you are without me mentioning names) as you can see we were right all
along. There not gonna fix it unless you purchase another product and
even thats not promised just implied.
So in conclusion Tom maybe we accomplished nothing ( fix wise) by our
negative post but we certainly got the attention and answers that we
wanted from Papyrus. I've said all along and it still stands true We
are customers and we deserve to be treated as such. Matt Thanks again
for replying we just wanted answers. You say its beyond a patch I can
live with that just hate it because Nascar2 definately
could have been the best Sim ever. Still makes a great Arcade game
though.
---Jim Sokoloff
>> More like yours. I have enough money to let me buy a game for 50
dollars
>> without whining
>Oh, and Tommy... you don't actually have to quote the last 27 replies of
>a thread when *your* message adds up to two sentences of blithering
>vapidity (look it up). Turn off the flashlight now...
>Bart
Bart
> If the Cyrix and AMD chips are COMPATIBLE, then there is no need to test on those systems, because by definition, they will work the same as the genuine Intel product, otherwise they aren't compatible. Period.
> ---Jim Sokoloff
What's this -- engineering by tautology? Since even Intel systems don't
perform the same from box to box, due to differing system
configurations, your circular reasoning is doubly unsound.
What's wrong with Sierra (I noticed in the latest issue of "Interaction"
that there is not ONE mention of the name Papyrus, so THAT inevitability
came about more quickly than even *I* thought it would) actually
real-world testing their product on a number of typical board, chip,
RAM, and video card configurations? Takes too much time? How long does
it take to write a patch? It is the hallmark of a company that cares
nothing about quality that they never take the time to do things right
in the first place, but they always seem to have the time to fix it
now; free patch (M) months later = business writeoff? Is that the Sierra
equation?
Goodbye Papyrus, it was nice knowing you pre-Sierra...
Bart Brown
Jim,
I am not saying that it (my CPU mis-identifier) is Papy's fault. I think
that you focused too heavily on the specifics of MY problem and lost sight
of the general consensus that N2 has been a problem install for a large
number of people as evidenced by the volume of postings that are titled
something like "N2 help please". This IMHO is partly because of the vast
number of devices that can be made from any of hundreds of different
manufacturers in one person's computer; a standardization problem and once
again not Papy's fault.
With regard to my ATI card, the tech support at Sierra never asked me what
kind of graphics card I had; I happened to volunteer the information. In
the Install guide for N2 it specifically mentions problems with Matrox
video cards, but not ATI. That is an oversight probably stemming from lack
of development time in order to release the product by Christmas (or any
other commercial holiday).
This brings me to support of the point (mine and others) that Papy
released the product before it was finished. How many patches have been
released already two or three? There is no "Save Game" feature, but it
supposedly will be included in a future update; likewise no random
assignment of pit stalls, no 2 day qualifying, no double-file restarts.
For more information on these topics, please contact Dave Sparks
your name as a person to send suggestions to about Nascar 3.
Personally, I don't BLAME anyone for these types of omissions. Software
development is a business and when the suits say "Jim, this product better
be ready to ship before Christmas", Jim gets it ready to ship because its
his ass if he doesn't. (By "Jim" I mean no specific person) Anyway, I
firmly believe that you can't please all of the people all of the time; and
when you develop a product as fun, well packaged, well documented, and
downright realistic as Nascar 2, people (myself included) have to find
something derogatory to say about it. That is also magnified by the fact
that the best games in each genre lead to a following nearly religious in
its devotion to the game and simultaneously rabid in its attempt to the
criticize the developers.
As far as software goes, I am willing to wait through endless patches and
updates just as long as the game gets a little better each and every time.
I have stayed up every night since I got the game until 3 am because I
agree with its "Game of the Year" honors. Hell, Rome wasn't built in a
day and if software can be compared to an ancient city Nascar2 is
definitely in the running for Rome (or at least NasCarthage).
Regards,
Jason Butler
> > [The problem] turned out to be a combination of the fact that I
> > needed a VBE driver for my ATI video card and the toggler that I use to
> > disguise my Cyrix 6x86 chip as an Intel Pentium needed to be disabled.
> > IMHO Papy should have done more testing on their product in order to
make
> > it more hardware compatible, but we are just coming out of the PC
***
> > darkages.
> Video card problems are always going to be around; fortunately, they are
> generally fairly easy to figure out, and downloading new drivers from
> your video card manufacturer generally solves things.
> But the real question is:
> So, you're running a non-Pentium chip, but you've got software loaded
> that causes a querying program to believe that you've got a genuine
> Pentium. Then when software checks the CPUID, and finds that you've
> "got" a Pentium and subsequently crashes on a Pentium instruction
> (because you don't have a Pentium), that is somehow Papyrus' fault?
> Just making sure that I understand the problem...
> ---Jim
After reading your last three posts Bart.....I am near to recalling my
apology.... re-read your own posts and time how long it takes you to
realizer how utterly STUPID they are.
sheesh. Some people never figure things out.
TrenT
--
Driver of the #15 Cincinnati Bengals Pontiac
N2STRS
NSRA-S Division
CatchMeIfU.........................Can
> After reading your last three posts Bart.....I am near to recalling my
> apology.... re-read your own posts and time how long it takes you to
> realizer how utterly STUPID they are.
Ain't THAT the truth!
BarT
PS -- if you didn't like my last three posts, you probably won't like my
latest ones, either. Why not do yourself a favor: check the message
header -- if my name's on it, you are hereby declared "not obligated to
read it". I won't take offense, honest.
http://www.sierra.com/support/customer/refunds.html
---Jim Sokoloff
: What's wrong with Sierra (I noticed in the latest issue of "Interaction"
: that there is not ONE mention of the name Papyrus, so THAT inevitability
: came about more quickly than even *I* thought it would) actually
: real-world testing their product on a number of typical board, chip,
: RAM, and video card configurations? Takes too much time? How long does
<snip>
: Goodbye Papyrus, it was nice knowing you pre-Sierra...
Well, I just received my copy of Interaction and my copy must not be the
same as the "special redacted" version you recieved.
pg 12: "Upcoming Issues" "Watch for future interviews with ...
*Papyrus'* head speed demon, Dave Kaemmer."
pg 88: "***ed to SODA" "We live for the next big *Papryus* racing
release. That's why we went into mourning when the *Papyrus* developers
recently let us know that Grand Prix Legends wouldn't be available until
Spring 1998. . . pre-alpha version of *Papyrus'* new SODA Off-Road
Racing..."
pg 89: same article "The folks at *Papyrus* have big plans... We've
made *Papyrus* promise..."
Funny, you are right there was "not ONE mention of the name Papyrus".
There where at least 6 that I found in just a few minutes.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
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